Anyone familiar with rusyn (ruthenian) language?

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by koljach, Apr 19, 2014.

  1. koljach New Member

    Croatian
    So guys, tonight i spent some time collecting samples of various slavic languages and dialects which is debated over whether they are dialects or separate languages, with sample being Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And only language missing, at least according to omniglot.com page, is rusyn. So if there is anyone who could translate first article of aforementioned declaration in rusyn, i'd really appreciate it.

    Here is what i got so far. Started with southernmost and worked my way to the northwest and then east:

    As you can see, i am missing only rusyn. Unless i managed not to mention a language i should.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  2. ahvalj

    ahvalj Senior Member

    Sorry for an off-topic post, but your Bulgarian, Russian and Ukrainian transliterations are unusual and inconsistent. Are they meant to be English transliterations? Or general Slavic? Also, why does the Cyrillic "х" become "h" in Bulgarian, but "kh" in Russian? One shouldn't just copy-paste what some idiot has posted in the web.
     
  3. Awwal12 Senior Member

    Moscow, the RF
    Russian
    Yes, at least the Russian transliteration is indeed quite inconsistent. Soft consonants before vowels are represented by addition of either -j or -y (ljudi, roždajutsya), and in other places the same combinations mean a soft consonant plus /j/ (sovestju). In fact, the soft signs (if we speak about the plain transliteration) look like just being inored (no trace of the soft sign in postupat).

    Btw I realize that "ё" is usually written as "e" in Russian and, hence, further transliterated as "e", but it seems way too counter-productive.

    P.S.: And as long as we speak about the comparison of Slavic languages, I'd recommend some practical transription instead of transliteration - at least in case of Russian, with its archaic and quite non-phonemic orthography.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  4. koljach New Member

    Croatian
    All those samples are taken from page called omniglot.com, which contains info on various language, with sample text usually in every respective alphabet, i just copied latin versions for consistency, but now i see it was a mistake. Will change it. Seems they put minimal efforts in transliteration, what i couldnt know of course. Dont hate, i am just a poor layman who recently discovered interest for comparison of similair languages, and needs to start somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  5. Miralasa Junior Member

    Russian
    Note that there is several principal dialects of Rusyn, which differ much.
     
  6. TKD New Member

    Slovakia
    Slovak - Slovakia
    Some corrections.
    - that one is Czech.
     
  7. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    :D

    EDIT: even more corrections
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  8. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    In Slovak (based on koljach's English version): Všetky ľudské bytosti sa rodia slobodné a rovné v dôstojnosti a právach. Sú obdarované rozumom a svedomím a mali by sa k sebe správať v duchu bratstva.
    In Slovak (based on koljach's Czech version): Všetci ľudia sa rodia slobodní a seberovní čo do dôstojnosti a práv. Sú nadaní rozumom a svedomím a majú spolu jednať v duchu bratstva.
     
  9. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    I don't see a reason to replace 'obdarené' with 'obdarované' as the latter gives more the impression of being actually materially gifted.
    They are participles of different verbs (obdariť vs. obdarovať) with a slightly different meaning. Obdariť is far more used in the above sense, although I think 'nadané' is by far the best translation.

    So one more from me :) :

    Všetky ľudské bytosti sa rodia slobodné a rovné v dôstojnosti a právach. Sú nadané rozumom a svedomím a mali by sa k sebe správať v duchu bratstva.


    (If we wanted to be literal and follow the original, the original verb 'to endow' (derived from dowry - the assets brought by a woman to her husband at marriage) actually has an exact Slovak counterpart - 'obveniť' and I think even more colloquial 'dať do vienka' is also related to this, but its use in modern Slovak would not be idiomatic in this case.)
     
  10. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    I hope you were not serious. :) Because "nadané rozumom a svedomim" is nonsense, unfortunately.
     
  11. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    I think both sound ok here. I've used "obdarované" because it was in a dictionary.
    They are synonyms. From Krátky slovník slovenského jazyka 4:
    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=obdariť&s=exact&c=i2e5&d=kssj4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=obdarovať&s=exact&c=xb80&d=kssj4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
    Why is it nonsense?
     
  12. jasio Senior Member

    I'm sorry to interfere into Slovaks' discussion about Slovak language, but since the Declaration is an official, legal document, perhaps it would be reasonable to use the official translation, if it's available? I've found something like:
    I've also found a version with 'nadané' in an article, but I wasn't sure if I could treat is as official.

    BTW, the official translation to Polish also differs slightly from what the OP quoted:
    .

    I've also found a slightly different Kashubian version, which appeals slightly more to me:
    Referring to OP's origiginal post:
    Old Church Slavonic? ;)

    It would be terribly anachronic, but considering the importance of OCS for Slavic languages (especially those with dominating orthodox denomination), it could be worth mentioning. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  13. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Because one's reason and conscience is not their talent ("nadaný" means "talented;" there is no other meaning).
    And if it is not? ;) There is no "official" translation. I surely would not use the one stated in the implausible source you have qouted and which anyone can edit (although it is not a bad translation :)). You can use translations available, for instance, at: Kancelária verejného ochrancu práv (uses "nadaní" :thumbsdown: - so I would not use the translation therefrom), Ústav pamäti národa, etc.
    But I see that you have found the "official" Polish translation, jasio. :thumbsup:

    By the way, I have overlooked TKD's correction of "sebe rovní" to "seberovní." "Sebe rovní" is used as "pronoun + adjective" and is correct so there is no need to "correct" it to the adjective "seberovní":

    seberovní ľudia
    ľudia sebe rovní
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  14. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    having (some) abilities, faculties, endowment... (?)
     
  15. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Source : slovnik.juls.savba.sk : nadaný
    Source : slovnik.juls.savba.sk : nadanie
    You can't use it in the sense 1 of "obdarený" since only the sense 2 applies here. I am surprised that it does not sound strange to you. I was smacked in the face with its strangeness. :)
    Source : slovnik.juls.savba.sk : obdarený
     
  16. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    I think in the future you should make a little bit of research before posting conclusions like the above as some people who possibly learn Slovak might just be confused. I think your own emotions are not the best criterion to make statements about nonsenses and such...

    If you read the dictionary entries you yourself posted above, you'll see that the meanings are indeed slightly different and that is just like I described in my post.
    obdariť dok. obdarovať > there is a further explanation which makes them not perfect synonyms > (obyč. niečím nehmotným) i. e. usually used for gifts that are not of material, contrary to:
    obdarovať dok. dať dar, darovať niekomu niečo - where the examples only list material objects as gifts

    Just documents what I mentioned above about the reseach since as you saw a bit later there are other meanings:
    nadaný majúci prirodzené vlohy na nejakú činnosť • talentovaný: je to nadaný, talentovaný básnik, matematikšikovný • schopný (v istom odbore ľudskej činnosti): chlapec je šikovný v športe; byť mimoriadne schopným pedagógomgeniálny (mimoriadne, výnimočne nadaný): geniálne dieťarodený: rodený obchodník • zastar.: obdarený • obdarovaný (Vajanský)

    I am unsure if the words have the same meaning for me and for you, which would then turn all this to a rathe philosophical debate, but I maintain that that a version used by the Office of the Public Defensor of Rights , which is a governmental body anchored in the Slovak legal system can without any doubt be called official. You might or may not be happy with it, but it is what it is.

    You may be 'surprised' or 'smacked in the face', none of these emotions should serve you as a support when there is a lack of sound arguments for your statements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  17. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    I would really like to react on your last post but if I remove all the negative emotions your post is full of, then there won't be much left that would deserve my attention and response.
    Apollodoros, you seem to be offended by something in my previous post that caused you write like that. Is it because I described your suggestion as "nonsense"? Would "written words that make no sense" be better?
    Or maybe "not a very common construction"? If so, then I am sorry because I would have lied then. Or maybe you were offended by my use of the emoticon. If so, then I am sorry. No offense intended. Next time I will leave my post "neutral" when responding to yours. Also, please communicate information and not negative emotions. People come here to learn something and I am not sure that your emotions are the right offer for them. It only disturbs.
    Please, do it now and come back with its results. I can't comment on something I do not see. I am open to any rational communication.
    That is why I commented to prevent you from doing so.
    :confused: You can mention whatever documents you like and they will still be useless as simple mentioning is not enough as I mentioned above. And could you please be more explicit what "other" meanings I can see a bit later? :confused: If you mean the meanings above then I do not understand because they support what I have said and not you. Or maybe you have an access to some unexpurgated version of text.
    That does not make it official in this case. I am sorry.
    :confused: The above statement is the mirror for all your posts in this thread. And as you can see, our last posts added absolutely nothing to this thread and should be deleted.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  18. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I was given a translation of this Article into North Ruthenian (Lemko) language:

    Вшыткы люде родятся вiльны i рiвны в своїй гідности i правах. Сут надаруваны розумом i сумлiньом, i повинны поступувати в стосунку до iнчых в духу братства.
     
  19. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

  20. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Yes, the meaning should be the same in both Slovak and Czech. And the definition from the above dictionary shows at the very beginning why "nadaný rozumom a svedomím" is incorrect. There is no such a construction as "nadaný niečím." :cross: That is why the construction "nadaný rozumom a svedomím" should immediately sound strange to any Slovak or Czech.
    Source: ssjc.ujc.cas.cz : nadaný

    Then, there are other reasons why "nadaný rozumom a svedomím" is erroneous.
    When we use "nadaný" we want to point out that one possessing "nadanie" has a natural ability to do something well (to draw portraits, play the guitar, write poems, milk a cow, sell anything available, etc. well) and thus stands out "in a crowd" (because not all human beings possess that ability to such an extent). We do not use "nadaný" to indicate that human beings are "nadané" and other animals are not.
    The attributes "reason" and "conscience" that human beings are "endowed" with according to the UN, the attributes that are given to them as gifts of nature, divine gifts are the ones that should differ them from other animals and should predispose them to their "acting towards one another in a spirit of a brotherhood." Endowment refers to the inherent talent, ability, quality, etc. - in this case an ability of the mind to think and understand in a logical way, to conduct inquiry, evaluate, solve problems, etc. and an ability to distinguish right from wrong, to apply a moral sense to one's own judgment and actions.
    So if one is not "endowed" with a reason, are they not human beings? That is what could be inferred from the UN formulation but that is a different subject not relating to this thread.

    * I, personally, would more likely say "nadaný žiak / umelec" and "mať nadanie pre hudbu / hudobné nadanie" (not "nadaný pre hudbu / k hudbe") but that is just a personal preference. Nothing more.
     
  21. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    What I meant is that the meaning is the same:
    http://slovniky.juls.savba.sk/?w=nadaný&s=exact&c=x2f7&d=kssj4&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
    http://ssjc.ujc.cas.cz/search.php?hledej=Hledat&heslo=nadaný&sti=EMPTY&where=hesla&hsubstr=no

    "mající nadání" and "talentovaný, schopný" are separated by a semicolon :warning: in that Czech definition. Here's another one (for Czech, slightly different): http://bara.ujc.cas.cz/psjc/search....rds&pocet_karet=3&numcchange=no&not_initial=1

    Lingea dictionaries translate "nadaný" as both "endowed and "talented" for Slovak and Czech (http://slovniky.lingea.sk/, http://slovniky.lingea.cz/)
     
  22. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    I know what you meant. I was just careful. There are people who take the trouble to analyze your text in depth and search the Internet, books, etc. only to prove you were not precise or that you were wrong. It is always good to leave the door open for rebutting possible attacks. I am still fine with should. :)
    But in this case, the semicolon is not used to separate different things and a comma to separate the same thing as it is usually the case in dictionaries. Here it is used to avoid the possible confusion that could arise by using a comma (= "mající talentovaný"). See it in a reversed view:
    Source : ssjc.ujc.cas.cz : talentovaný
    But "nadaný" can be translated as "endowed" where the context allows it. Endowed means "having talent," inter alia. That is why it is between the suggested translations but that does not mean that you can translate every "endowed" as "nadaný." The context is crucial.
    Moreover, we should not forget that "nadaný niečím" is a solecism.
     
  23. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    I don't think that "mající nadání, talentovaný, schopný" could cause confusion. I can't see any reason for that. :confused:
     
  24. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    It is one of possible explanations why words describing the same sense are separated by a semicolon. I am not a learner of Czech so I can't tell for sure if I am confused when I see it separated only by a comma (probably not :)) and neither am I the author of that dictionary. But when you look at it you can see that the semicolon is used to separate different ways of defining the same sense of the definiendum:
    <present participle + noun>; <adjective>, <adjective>
    ...so it may prevent the interruption of the "flow" of reading when one may expect after "present participle + noun" another noun but there comes surprisingly an adjective.
    What we know for sure is that, in this case, the semicolon is not used to separate the distinct senses of the word "nadaný." ;)
     
  25. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    morior_invictus, you will probably again claim I am expressing negative emotions here but I can assure you this is not the case and I guess (by the very nature of this internet forum) you will often find opinions that disagree with yours, that are not necessarily negative emotions. I find your statements as 'it's a nonsense', 'you can mention whatever documents and it's not enough' etc. offensive, inappropriate, lacking any necessary authority that would allow you to make such judgments, against the spirit of this forum an driven by your emotions. I am aware of what internet forums are and that various types of persons can be encountered here, types like you though put me a little bit off and make the whole very good experience somewhat spoiled.

    Now>

    There certainly is a construction nadaný niečím in Slovak, regardless of whether or not you find it incorrect and regardless of whether or not it sounds strange to you.

    At least one document was mentioned above using this construction (Office of the Public Defensor of Rights), which shows that it probably did not sound strange to whoever translated it or uploaded such a translation on an official website. Google search can serve you further to find out that the construction does exist.

    There is also an archaic meaning in the definition of 'nadaný' itself > zastar.: obdarený • obdarovaný (Vajanský)

    It might be archaic or originally Czech construction adopted by Slovak, none of this disqualifies its use in a legal translation to convey the original meaning in the best manner. I am unsure if you want to question the authority of its Vajanský's use in the sense of obdarený • obdarovaný (and - although I am just guessing here - it requires a noun in instrumental case to define the nature of the endowment, that Vajansky would have used, ie. 'obdarovaný niečím' ).
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  26. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    :confused: No, I will not because I do not have a reason to do so.
    Yes, there is. The one that you mentioned further in your post.
    Google search can provide me with lot of ungrammatical, uneducated posts that one studying Slovak or any other language should filter. You can quote here some of them.
    When you look at my post #15 you will find the quotation that explains what "obdarený • obdarovaný (Vajanský)" refers to.
    Source: slovnik.juls.savba.sk : obdarený

    So as you can see from the above, "obdarený / obdarovaný" can also be used as an archaic form of "talentovaný."
    Národ náš tratí obdarených (=nadaných) synov. (Vaj.)
    Hroboň, veľmi obdarený (=talentovaný) romantik slovenský. (Vlč.)

    It does not refer to the sense 1 of "obdarený."
    There is no need to question anything. It just means something different than you thought. So again, there is no such construction as "nadaný niečím" except the incorrect usage found in the translation you are referring to (and maybe a couple of hits on the Internet I am not aware of). I hope you can see it now. If still not, we can discuss this further but please, I need you to provide other uses of "nadaný niečím" so that we will not still talk about the translation provided by "Kancelária...." Otherwise, there is no point in discussing this further. Thank you.
     
  27. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    http://www.klemens.sav.sk/fiusav/doc/filozofia/2001/10/714-718.pdf

    (doc. PhDr. Jozef Pauer, CSc from the Philosophical Institute of the Slovak Academy of Sciences refers says: " Týmto trom zlatým obdobiam európskej kultúryje vlastná predstava o človeku nadanom nezlomným kultúrnym optimizmom.")

    http://fff.truni.sk/userdata/ebooks/dolista_kognicia_v_moralnom_spravani.pdf

    (prof. Dr. Josef Dolista, ThD., PhD from the Faculty of Philosphy of Trnava university says: Človek (zoón politikon) ako živá bytosť (spoločenská) je nadaná rozumom a ovláda i svoju psychiku, ktorá je založená na zmyslovej skúsenosti.)


    I maintain that there is a construction: "nadaný niečím" in Slovak, moreover, that it is clear and comprehensible for an ordinary Slovak speaker and it is used in various registers of the language and I documented this claim by providing two quotations from the scientific works as I wanted to avoid "ungrammatical, uneducated posts".
     
  28. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I'd like to add only my personal opinion or rather impression. "Nadaný niečim" in Slovak is surely used and also understood wihout any problem. Whether this construction is accepted or not by competent authorities, I do not know. However, spontaneusely it doesn't sound very well to me, at least in many cases, perhaps as if it were a bit forced. For example, I'd surely prefer "hudobne nadaný" and not "nadaný hudbou".
     
  29. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    Why would you want to say "nadaný hudbou" in the first place anyway? :confused: But even in such case I think those two would mean rather different things, compare e.g. nadaný rečovo vs. nadaný rečou.
     
  30. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I used this example only to illustrate that the construction nadaný kým/čím often does not sound good to me. The same is valid for the sentence "Sú nadaní rozumom a svedomím ...". This is my spontaneous feeling, not a conviction. However, as far as I have understood the previous posts, the dictionaries - for some reason - do not report examples for the construction nadaný kým/čím.
    I understand perfectly what you are saying, so only for curiosity, what would "nadaný hudbou" concretely mean?
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  31. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    I wouldn't use 'nadaný hudbou' either as there is a slight semantic difference. In the above contexts (and this is also how I and those who I quote perceived it) nadaný + noun instrumental case construction would only be used in the sense of endowed/granted (obdarený) with an immaterial quality/ability/characteristic. I would describe it as follows:

    nadaný = talented; endowed

    hudobne nadaný = musically talented (both 'nadaný hudbou' and its equivalent 'talented with music' and even 'endowed with music' in the sense talented are incorrect)

    however

    nadaný hudobným sluchom (hudobnými schopnosťami) = obdarený hudobným sluchom = endowed with musicality (both correct)
     
  32. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I don't want to contradict you a priori, but I'am not convinced about this. It doesn't sound 100% natural to me. For curisosity, (ten minutes ago :)) I've asked (without any further explanation) a native Slovak from Revúca if the sentence "XY je nadaný hudobným sluchom" was correct or not. Her spontaneous and immediate reaction was: "No".
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  33. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    I am just guessing that she would say that 'vlastná predstava o človeku nadanom nezlomným kultúrnym optimizmom' and ' živá bytosť (spoločenská) je nadaná rozumom' (quoted above) is incorrect too... still I am positive that she would correctly comprehend the meaning conveyed and not everyone must be familiar with this construction or use it
     
  34. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Thank you, Apollodoros, for quoting other examples of "nadaný niečím" you was able to find. My role in this thread is now complete and I am leaving it to others.

    As a side note, I hope you have not only quoted the particular sentences but also read the whole text. I do not know about you, but things like "pervertoval" and "trojičnosť" would not survive my red pen. And the same applies to the following deep thought:
    "Čokoľvek myseľ vidí, nevidí to bez ne-­iného. Nevidela by totiž iné. keby ne-­iné nebolo iné tohto iného. A tak by nemohla tiež uchopiť súcno, keby ne­-iné nebolo bytím samotného súcna, a tak o všetkom, čo môže byť povedané. Tak vidí myseľ všetko iné cez ono iné, ktoré je ne-­iné..."
    Some people (I am sorry, Nicholas) should rather cook than bother others with products of their mental activity.
    I am sure that "išiel som k domov" would also be comprehensible to the ordinary Slovak listener but you would not say it.

    Thanks again for providing other examples.

    Bye.
     
  35. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    Sort of like "having music", "possessing music", at least that's how I perceive it.
     
  36. Apollodoros

    Apollodoros Junior Member

    I am unsure if you have ever read any scientific work on philosophy but this is how those texts look like. I am also unsure whether you are trying to imply that this disqualifies the authors and further their use of the construction discussed here. Your quote is completely irrelevant.

    I fail to see how this is relevant with regards to the topic discussed in the last posts. I am not even talking about the topic of this thread.
    You are degrading this discussion to something that the people who read it are probably not interested in

    Anytime. I only did it to satisfy your demand. You are more than welcome.

    Good-bye.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014

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