Apfelsine vs Orange

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by wonderlicious, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. wonderlicious

    wonderlicious Junior Member

    UK
    British English
    Obviously, they mean the same, but are they used only in specific contexts and geographical locations?
     
  2. Robocop Senior Member

    Central Switzerland
    (Swiss) German
    The word Apfelsine is not used in Switzerland.
     
  3. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    They mean exactly the same - there is only a geographic distribution pattern
    In Austria some people might not even know what an "Apfelsine" is.

    Wiki claims that "Apfelsine" is restricted to the north of Germany (north of the Main river) but my impression is that even in Germany "Orange" overall is spreading - for example, in dubbed films I think only "Orange" is used. (Or, on second thought, it is probably used, but I think that at least "Orange" usually is preferred.)

    dtv Atlas der deutschen Sprache (1978/1994; p. 238) shows that Main-line and claims that north of that line "Orange" is a prestige word while "Apfelsine" is the colloquial term, while south of that line "Apfelsine" is a prestige word while "Orange" is the colloquial term.
    I cannot confirm this from own experience though (and I have doubts if this is the whole truth about it).
    However I can confirm that in Austria this is not so; "Apfelsine" is just foreign in Austria (and barely understood).
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  4. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    In Sachsen (Saxxony), we used both words.

    In local slang, we also used "appelsine". (The sound shift from "pp" to "pf" is not done here in the local dialect, and this is kept in the coll. language sometimes.)

    I do not remember how we named it in Südthüringen - but I suppose, it was both, too.

    In combined words, some are restricted:
    Example: Nabel-Orange, Blutorange.

    Both were used in "Kuba-Orangen" and "Kuba-Apfelsinen".

    For colour description, only "Orange/orange" is used, depending on whether it is a noun or an adjective. If you want to name a color with "Apfelsine", you could say "Apfelsinenfarbig". But it is not a color on its own.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2009
  5. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Has to be because the fruit is named after the colour and not the coulour after the fruit.

    The Low German word is Appelsin (from where it spread to Danish and Norwegian). It is therefore clear why a Northern German would regard Apfelsine as popular and Orange as posh. I suspect the origin is Dutch where appelsien is a variant of sinaasappel (Chiana apple).
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2009
  6. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Yes, dtv Atlas der deutschen Sprache (same as above: 1978/1994; p. 238) confirms that - that is, the Dutch and Low German words both obviously are cognates (I don't know if linguists agree on either being first, Kluge claims the Low German calque was first), and both are a calque from French "pomme de Sine" - "Chinese apple".

    "Orange" comes from French "pomme d'orange", and it is older: dtv gives 17th century for this while "Apfelsine" is attested since the 18th century.

    Also it would be interesting if Southerners could confirm that "Apfelsine" is thought of as posh (I doubt this - or at least I never observed this with Bavarians), as you have now confirmed that "Orange" in the north indeed is seen as posh.
     
  7. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Grimm quotes Dutch as the origin. Probably doesn't matter as the word seems to have arrived in both languages around the same time.
     
  8. magnus Senior Member

    Marburg, Germany (temp.)
    Norwegian (Scandinavian), Norway
    A project that I follow with great interest is the Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache, which is an online survey on German everyday language at the University of Augsburg. Of course, some results should be taken with a grain of salt (as it is conducted online), but in many cases, it gives a pretty clear picture of the situation:

    http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de...nistik/sprachwissenschaft/ada/runde_2/f07a-b/

    Regarding the usage of "Apfelsine / Orange", we see that the latter is usable in all German-speaking countries, also in the Northern parts, however dominant in the South, whereas "Apfelsine" only is used in Central and Northern Germany.

    I would recommend a further look into this survey. The results are also mostly (thoroughly) commented.

    Description of the project: http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/de/lehrstuehle/germanistik/sprachwissenschaft/ada/
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2009
  9. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    This survey indeed is interesting.
    It also says that "Orange" is considered as posh by Northerners. (Still no quote for Southerners claiming that "Apfelsine" were posh - as claimed by the dtv Atlas.)

    Anyway, the survey seems to show that "Orange" is spreading, but that "Apfelsine" still is widely used north of the Main-line.
     
  10. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Is that right? How do you know?
     
  11. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    My memory failed me. We had this topic a few month ago here. You will find "perhaps influenced by French or gold". But this is not enough to make such a bold claim as I did.
     
  12. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    Grimms Wörterbuch sagt für Orange:

    Interessant ist, dass "Pomeranze" heute nicht mehr oder kaum noch verwendet wird, bei Grimm aber noch als Erklärung dient.

    "Pomeranze" was an old name but is dated now. The name "Orange" has french roots according to Grimm.

    Hiernach scheint "Orange" von "Gold/goldfarben)" abgeleitet zu sein? Gold = aurum. Orange=citrus aurantium

    Because the word comes from older "narange" (here) the relation to gold may be folk etymology, but it certainly stabilized it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2009
  13. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    We learned Apfelsine, and not Orange. :(
    It seems that books are North-centric just because Hannover is the city of Hochdeutsch. (We learned Sonnabend too, and not Samstag :) ).
     
  14. Gernot Back

    Gernot Back Senior Member

    Cologne, Germany
    German - Germany
    I'm pretty much convinced that the etymology described in Grimm's dictionary is wrong. I suppose the French word "orange" (both the word for the fruit and the one for the color) has neither anything to do with the town of Orange, ancestral seat of the Dutch royal dynasty, nor anything to do with the French term for "gold", but that the word came about through deglutination of a word of Spanish or Italian origin towards the indefnite article:
    sp. una naranja > fr. une narange > fr. une orange
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orange
    ... just like the English word for apron is derived from French napperon:
    fr. un napperon > engl. a napron > engl. an apron
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=apron
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination_%28Linguistik%29

    It is quite interesting in this context that in Dutch "sinaasappel" und "appelsien" are the only terms for the fruit and that the term "oranje" is exclusively used for a color which has become the color for supporters national teams in sports due to the phonetical resemlance to the Dutch royal dynasty. Maybe this had an effect on the German preference for "Apfelsine" as a term for the fruit (not the color) in northern Germany as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  15. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Grimm only states that the word reached German through French, not that French is language the word originated from.

    See also this thread in the etymology forum.
     
  16. Gernot Back

    Gernot Back Senior Member

    Cologne, Germany
    German - Germany
    But Grimm evidently does draw a connection to the dynasty resp. the town of Orange (Oranienapfel), which is wrong: The Dutch phonetical resemlance of the fruit's color and the royal dynasty is also a mere coincidence.
     
  17. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    No etymology is proposed anywhere except "zu anfang des 18. jahrh. aufgenommen aus franz. orange". There is no hint as to the etymology of the French word.

    The German word "Oranienapfel" (which indeed exists) is listed but no etymology is proposed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  18. Herbstwind New Member

    German
    Regarding the poshness of Apfelsine, I just want to mention that I didn't encounter it very often (I come from Baden-Württemberg) and probably mainly in books, I don't think anybody used that word (I wouldn't even know how to say it in dialect). I remember that I didn't understand it until much later, I thought at first that it was the name of another fruit entirely and wouldn't have understood that an Orange was meant (I would rather have suspected apples ;-) ). So at least where I come from it is either not used at all, or if it was used it might have been seen as an odd way of saying Orange but I don't think it would have been considered particularly posh (or it might be that others wouldn't have understood it either). But that's just my experience, it might well be different for other parts of South-Germany.
     
  19. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    I second Hutschi's impression. :) Of course "Apfelsine" isn't used in Austria at all (actually many Austrians would struggle to even understand "Apfelsine" :)), but trough TV and dubbed films I also have at least some impression of what is used in Germany, and I am pretty sure that in dubbed films the term "Apfelsine" is hardly ever used at all, it is usually "Orange" (and also "Samstag" for that matter, but that's a different story).

    And so, Istriano:
    your teaching material most likely is dated, is what I would say. I expect you won't stand out in Northern Germany if you use "Apfelsine", but you probably would in most other German speaking regions (you certainly would in the south, and definitely in Switzerland and Austria).
     
  20. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    I don't think it's dated, they teach us Hannover German, which is the standard Hochdeutsch. My teacher (from Hamburg) told us to use the past simple (Ich machte) instead of the compound perfect (Ich habe gemacht) because ''German already has too many words in a sentence, so let's make it shorter) ;) So, this is like Spanish, Croatian and Italian, in different regions there is a strong preference for one form. ;)
    There's also Abendessen vs Abendbrot, Tschüss vs Ciao and so on...
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2011
  21. Frank78

    Frank78 Senior Member

    Saxony-Anhalt
    German
    I think it has changed since 1990. I have rarely heard/used orange in the GDR but then the west-supermarkets appeared and all offered "Orangen" and people started to adopt this word.
     
  22. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    I think it is obsolescent. When I was a kid the name of the German name of the fruit was Apfelsine - full stop. I didn't consider Orange a German word at all.

    Today, I always say Orange. I think I haven't used Apfelsine in years.
     
  23. jacquesvd Senior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch
    Im Flämischen Teil des niederländischen Sprachgebiets wird überwiegend 'appelsien' verwendet; in den Niederlanden selbst heißt es fast immer 'sinaasappel' und dort bin ich dem Wort 'appelsien' nur sehr ausnahmsweise begegnet und dann allein im Süden Hollands.

    Wenn man ein 'Orangensaft' bestellen will fragt man in Flandern sowohl nach 'appelsiensap' als nach 'sinaasappelsap' und in Holland eigentlich nur nach einem "Jus d'Orange" in einer für einen französischsprechenden nicht nachtzuahmenden Aussprache.
     
  24. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Hello :)

    I live in Hannover, and I normally don't say "Apfelsine". Wherever you go, you'll mostly see "Orangen". It's shorter, it's more international. It's the normal word.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2011
  25. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    And g is pronounced like in English orange?
    Germans are very fond of English words, like "Unser Song für Deutschland". It must be the most heavily anglicized European language, especially in the colloquial register.
    When I read Bravo magazine (back in 1990ies), almost in every sentence there were 3 or 4 English words, it's ridiculous.
     
  26. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    No, as in French (except that the nasal vowel isn't correct. Most people pronounce it as an o-nasal and not as an a-nasal).
     
  27. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    I am very sure that at least in my region there were the names "Kubaorangen", and "Nabelorangen" resp. "Navelorangen" during the GDR time.
    I have to believe you that it was not used in your region, so it should have been regional.
    Do you mean this?
     
  28. Dan2

    Dan2 Senior Member

    US
    US English
    Off-topic (sorry...) aber interessant:
    Unmittelbar nach der Wende (richtiges Wort?) wurde dieser Satz ungrammatikalisch! Heute heißt es, "I rarely heard/used ..."
     
  29. jacquesvd Senior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch
    Why would orange be more international? English being the lingua franca of this time and age, it's obvious that you stand a better chance of being understood when you speak English rather than any other language, but in itself the word is not common in most languages: pomarańcza(Polish), laranja (Portuguese), naranja (Spanish) arancia (Italian), sinaasappel or appelsien (Dutch), etc.

    It is believed that the origin of 'appelsien'= Apfelsine goes back to when the fruit, originating in China, became first known and was therefore called 'ein Apfel aus China' which, shortened then became 'appelsien' in Dutch.
    It's probable that the French word 'orange' goes back to 'una naranja' or 'un'arancia' the terms for it in Spain and Italy where the 'orange' was first cultivated on European soil.
     
  30. Frank78

    Frank78 Senior Member

    Saxony-Anhalt
    German
    Stimmt, ich vergaß ;)
     
  31. Geo.

    Geo. Senior Member

    West of So'ton, Hants
    UK English (SE England)
    For what it's worth, I did grow up understanding what „Apfelsine“ means, although I don't know that I ever thought it was ‘posh’ per se; (my family background is Swiss, but originally from Austria-Hungary).

    Yet, I was given the impression — possibly from local Mennonites, who are inclined to Low German — that „Apfelsine“ was the echt German word. We never used it, however.

    Anyone in my family would have said „Orange“ to sound standard and be readily understood. (The word we used informally was „Pomeranze“ ... we may have been reluctant to use it when attempting to speak properly, because it was perceived as old fashioned and regional, even dialectic in terms of modern German).

    Given a choice, I would only ever use „Orange“ myself. „Apfelsine“ sounds pretentious and unnatural comming from the Swiss or Austrians, whilst „Pomeranze“ may well belong to the era of the k. u. k. ... (and where it is better left to-day).

    I find that quite interesting in the same vein, the way borders and national-lines can often influence the survival of some words to the near extinction of others, dependant upon the area. Just ask a Prussian and an Austrian to each pronounce the letter „J“ ... the Prussian will find it very difficult not to ‘correct’ the Austrian. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  32. Kurtchen Senior Member

    German - Norddeutschland
    On the topic of obsolescence... Erschieß die Apfelsine (Skjut apelsinen) is the German title of a relatively new (2010) novel by Mikael Niemi. Perhaps intentional.

    Also, although I'm familiar with Apfelsine, I don't remember ever hearing or reading the word Apfelsinensaft, but always Orangensaft :)
     
  33. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    I read "Apfelsinensaft" and it was sold in Dresden. But mostly this kind of juice is named "Orangensaft".
     
  34. Geo.

    Geo. Senior Member

    West of So'ton, Hants
    UK English (SE England)

    There were a number of Germans here — or rather in a town just a few km away from where I live — who were DP's from Ostpreußen after WW II, (although their numbers grow fewer each year as they pass away, and many of their children only seen to have English). It was certainly common enough to go to the supermarket and hear them say „Apfelsinensaft“; it doesn't even sound odd to me.

    Mind you, I would only ever say „Orangensaft“ myself.

    (However, I just tried to say „Pomeranzensaft“ in my head, and I cannot stop laughing ... now that one really does sound odd! :D I don't know that it was ever said at any time in any region or dialect).
     
  35. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    When I learned German as a child, we learned Apfelsine (just like we learned Sonnabend), but now the things have changed.
     
  36. Gernot Back

    Gernot Back Senior Member

    Cologne, Germany
    German - Germany
    No, Sonnabend isn't dated, just like Nikolausabend (Dec. 5th, Nikolaus ist der 6. Dezember!) and Heiligabend (Christmas Eve) aren't!

    Apfelsine
    isn't dated either!
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
  37. Geo.

    Geo. Senior Member

    West of So'ton, Hants
    UK English (SE England)
    Opekta war die wohl bekannteste Marke für pektinhaltige Geliermittel des 20. Jahrhunderts. Robert Feix (geb. 1893 in Wien; gest. 1973) war ein österreichischer Chemiker, der die Opekta GesmbH gründete, mit Stammsitz in Köln.

    Ich habe ein altes (Mitte der 30er Jahre) Opekta Einmachbuch gefunden, (eigentlich nur ein Büchlein meiner seligen Mutter). Früher haben viele europäische Mütter Marmeladen, Fruchtgelees, Torten-Geleeguss usw. mit Opekta-Geliermittel gemacht. Leider wird Opekta seit 1995 nicht mehr hergestellt.

    Auf der Rückseite dieses Büchleins ist in Sütterlin gedruckt:

    „Opekta: Marmeladen u. Gelees aus Apfelsinen, getrockneten Aprikosen, Äpfeln, Honig“.

    Darin finde ich auf Seite Nr. 42 „Apfelsinen- (Orangen-) Marmelade“ Rezept.

    Na also, der Geschäftsführer ist ein Österreicher aus Wien, (dort wo man gewöhnlich sagt „Orange“), aber seine Werbung verwendet das Wort „Apfelsine“, (und für den Geschmack ist die beste Orangenmarmelade aus Pomeranzen gemacht).

    (Danke Heike)
     
  38. Geo.

    Geo. Senior Member

    West of So'ton, Hants
    UK English (SE England)
  39. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    "orange" etc. comes, via Arabic and Persian, from Sanskrit nāraṅga-. It occurs already in Vedic and designates the tree and its fruit, not the colour.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  40. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    The color name is derived from this fruit. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(Farbe)
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  41. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    At least in modern usage, Pomeranze and Orange/Apfelsine do not mean the same thing any more. Pomeranze (aka as Bitterorange) means the bitter variety of Oranges we had in Europe in the 18th century and not the sweet ones we are used to today.
     
  42. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    It's funny that dictionaries (like Duden pictorial for children) still prefer the word Apfelsine although it is disappearing (even from Northern Germany where it was mostly used).
     
  43. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    I prefer "Apfelsine" in daily life ... (Dresden, Saxxony, 58 Years old)
    "Orange" - only as "Orangensaft" or as special sort, example "Navelorangen", "Kubaorangen" etc.
     
  44. Geo.

    Geo. Senior Member

    West of So'ton, Hants
    UK English (SE England)
    Excellent point, and I very much agree, but sweet oranges like „Navelorangen“, for eating fresh just as they are, did not become common everywhere until within living memory. The old oranges we had in the '40s and '50s — if one could get them — were not navel oranges, and they had pips (or seeds) which had to be removed, they were sour, but sweet enough to eat, although we still cut them in half and sprinkled what sugar we had on them. The carpels (or sections) were divided by tough walls like grapefruit.

    (I grew up on rationing, which was actually worse in Britain after World War II than it was during it. I was in my teens before I ever saw anything so wonderful and sweet as a navel-orange. However for baking and cooking, such as making cakes or marmalade, Seville Oranges (bitter oranges), were thought ideal — again, if one could get them — as they imparted a much stronger orange flavour, thus fewer were needed , and the fact that they were as sour as lemons didn't matter because they would be mixed with sugar. (Shredded carrots were also added to stretch the quantity when cooking)).

    Yes, when speaking German we usually said „Orangen“, but „Pomeranzen“ was still occasionally said by my grandparents for those early oranges of my youth ... although I'm not quite from the 18th century. :D I think, perhaps, a one-time overlap in the Austrian-German use of the word „Orange“ with the word „Pomeranze“, might have its basis not only in time, but also in the multi-lingual nature of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, where in Polish, for instance, the only word is „pomarańcze”, so too in Czech and Slovak with „pomeranče“.

    In this sense, it is regional, perhaps even dialectic — and quite obsolete — but then, I admitted in my first post on this topic that I would only ever say „Orange“ as „Apfelsine“ sounds pretentious coming from the Swiss or Austrians. And „Pomeranze“ has little place today in modern German except to mean Seville Oranges and the like, just as you say. :)

    I like to see a man ‘stick to his guns’ as the Americans say, and I appreciate our differences, and like to see them survive, rather than slip away. (Though in the case of an erstwhile extended meaning of „Pomeranze“, I think ‘that ship has sailed’ so to speak).
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2012
  45. Geo.

    Geo. Senior Member

    West of So'ton, Hants
    UK English (SE England)
    The above sentence taken from the advertising for a firm owned by Austrian Robert Fiex, sounds very German to Swiss-Austrian ears, yet I couldn't quite put my finger on it ... but then it came to me. Any Austrian, especially from Vienna, would have said (aus) getrockneten Marillen“. However, it is more than a simple matter of semantics and regional or dialectic preferences.

    With advertising directed at the German market of the mid-nineteen-thirties, in the same way Aprikosen is used in place of „Marillen“ this would suggest to me that the advertising firm Fiex engaged for his Cologne based operations, felt rather strongly that — at least at the time — „aus Apfelsinen“ was the German way of saying things, where the Austrian „aus Orangen“ was not.

    This would strengthen the argument that the standard word for an ‘orange’ in Germany — at least in the first half of the 20th century — was still generally „Apfelsinen“.
     

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