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Apocope

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by Necsus, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    From the thread 'I think I should explain'...

    Since it seems to be useful, I'll also report the cases where the apocope is obligatory (or usual):
    - with quello, bello, grande (usual) e santo (before consonant - except/save s+consonant, z, x, gn, ps -, or in same cases where you use il and un instead of lo and uno) => quel cane, bel quadro, gran caldo, san Giorgio;
    - with article uno and indefinite adjectives compounded with uno before vowel and single consonant (except/save z and x) => un uomo, nessun pudore;
    - with a verb in the infinitive followed by enclitic pronoun => cercarlo;
    - with the word frate followed by first name => fra Cristoforo;
    - with the words Valle, Torre, Colle, Monte in toponyms => Val d'Ossola;
    - with the first names Antonio and Giovanni/Gianni in double names => Antongiulio, Gianluca;
    - with the word cavallo in the saying 'a caval donato non si guarda in bocca';
    - with a qualification followed by a first or last name => Dottor Bianchi (usual);
    - with an adjective that ends with -le or -re, when juxtaposed to/with another adjective => nazionalpopolare (usual).
     
     
    : linguistics
  2. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    Necsus,
    Thank you for this detailed and very useful explanation. Just one point.
    Re apocope you say that is can happen:"on condition that:
    - the vowel to be left off is unaccented, and it's not 'a' (apart from 'ora' and its compounds, and 'suora' before a first name).
    Is it then wrong to say (ad esempio) "un' espressione"?
    Or have I misunderstood?
    Best wishes
    Virgilio
     
  3. infinite sadness

    infinite sadness Senior Member

    sicilia
    bilingue siciliano-italiano
    Un'espressione is not an apocope, it is elisione.
     
  4. GavinW Senior Member

    Italy
    British English
    Necsus: thanks. That is brilliant. I'm sure this thread will be referred to a lot in the future. Let's remember it's there, so we can point people to it when they ask "why oh why in Italian...". ;-)

    (Just one point: we say "juxtaposed with")
     
  5. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    infinitesadness,
    Thank you for your prompt reply.
    I am much obliged
    Virgilio
     
  6. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    Yes, Virgilio, as IS said, in un'espressione we have an elision, you can find something about it HERE, or HERE, otherwise I can translate it too from SI forum...

    Thank you, Gavin, I'll correct my not-brilliant English..! :)
     
  7. audia Senior Member

    Germany
    USA,English
    Thanks for the info., Nescus. Since I am sure that this thread will be referred to many times in the future. I would like to say that in AE we would say "juxtaposed to "and instead of "save" (meaning except is vey antiquated ) we say except.
    Thanks again for the free Italian lesson and by the way your avtar is very appropriate and classy!
    C.
     
  8. rocamadour

    rocamadour Senior Member

    Milano
    Italian
    Grazie Necsus :) per il prezioso "ripasso", completo, sintetico e utilissimo anche per i madrelingua! :thumbsup:
    (audia ha ragione riguardo al tuo avatar;) )
     
  9. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    Thanks very much for your appreciation(s), and suggestions..! (my post are colouring...)
    Grazie a te, Roc, per averlo apprezzato.
     
  10. GavinW Senior Member

    Italy
    British English
    Oh well, you can't win them all! Looks like you (Necsus) will have to re-edit your original post! (If you want to keep in with the Americans, at least!)

    (But "save" is OK by me.)

    But NB also: I'll can :cross: I will be able/I can :tick: (and my US friends will agree with that too!) ;-)
     
  11. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    Now I think my post is written in perfect IBAE! :D
     
  12. audia Senior Member

    Germany
    USA,English
    I do not envy your position having to make a decision when translating. How do you natives deal with the AE/BE decision?

    Sorry if this question is not appropriate for this forum.
    C.
     
  13. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    Hi, Virgilio.
    I tried to translate my post about 'elision', you can find it here. ;)
     
  14. CiaoLee Junior Member

    English
    This thread is fantastic! Grazie!!!
     
  15. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    You're welcome. I'm glad you appreciate it...! :);)

    (grazie, mods, per aver rialleggerito il titolo del thread!)
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008

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