Arabic "دنيا" ("dunya") vs. Macedonian "dunja"

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Homer MakeDonski, May 10, 2010.

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  1. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    Moderator note:
    Split from here.

    Hi to all of you
    I am Goce Janevski 41 and I found you thankfully to uncle Google search.
    Been a while since I started my researches over the meaning of name of Macedonia or as I am splitting it Mace / Donia.
    A friend of mine has pointed me Arabic words hayat a dunya and here I am,reading all of yours explanation meanings of Dunya
    In our Macedonian language we have :
    Dunia or Dunja meaning the World

    Dunja f (arch. ) World 1

    As many of linguistically amateurs like me so do I am wondering what the possible origin of dunya could be ?
    Could you maybe write me what do you think over the possible origin of dunya at Arabic ?
    or how it come that we have dunia meaning all you nicely has explained.
    Regards from Macedonia to all of you here

    Goce Janevski
    aka
    Homer MakeDonski
    _________________________
    Ref:
    1-Todor Dimitrovski, Blagoja Korubin Trajko Stamatoski" Dictionary of the Macedonian language with Serbo-Croatian interpretations I ", Skopje 1961, p. 158
    Regards
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2010
  2. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Last edited: May 12, 2010
  3. vandaman Junior Member

    macedonian
    Dunja in Macedonian (Slavonic) is a Turkish loanword with Arabic origin. It is used wor the world and and the quince (cydonia oblonga)
     
  4. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    I know it's very unprofessional and unlikely related, but "dünya" sounds very similar to "dönüyo" (and similar in other dialects) (English translation: it is spinning, turning) in Turkish.
    Search for the Sufism as it contains within itself this concept.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

    The other words used for Earth in Turkish are: Arz, Yer Yüzü (face of Earth, ground: according to ancient Turkic philosophy, ground was the face of Earth, and there were different places on Earth that were different parts of it. Like breasts of the world, belly of the world, etc...), yurt: (as in my country is all the world)

    other Turkic words I think that might be related in concept:

    GÜN, KÜN: (day, morning, sun, sunlight, the time that passes after a full turning of Earth) BUGÜN: (today, current age) DÜN: (yesterday) güneş: (sun) günaydın: (good morning: the day,morning is bright) DOĞU: (East, eastern: birth, it is giving birth), ÖRT: (to cover (as in mountains and oceans cover Earth)) ÖR: to spin, to weave, to lay, etc http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=%C3%B6rmek , ÖRTÜ: something that covers another thing., AN: A moment

    We also use the pronouncement of English word "day" in sentences like: Güneş ufka değdi (deydi, tegdi) ; meaning: "The sun have touched the horizon."

    The "IA" part is common through out the world. In Turkic languages, we call it "ÖYÜ", Persians called it "IA".

    Just trying to help you in your research. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2010
  5. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Alas, I cannot help you with this query, but I do have a question, which arises from my ignorance. You write that you split up the word Macedonia into mace + donia. What would be the reason for doing so?

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  6. sokol

    sokol Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria; raised in Upper Austria
    Austrian (as opposed to Australian)
    Here's the etymology suggested by etymonline:

    Possibly some linguists prefer other theories, but etymonline usually is a good and trustworthy source; however, your suggestion, Homer, is pure folk etymology. :)
     
  7. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    Thanks for all your participation.
    Regarding the name of Macedonia origin and meaning possibilities, It will be better if we open new separated topic.

    Dear Origumi
    Could you please tell us how at your native language will say "the World" or Earth.
    Does it have any dunya connections?

    Dear Vandaman
    Please do not get me wrong.
    What for that necessity for writing Macedonian (Slavonic)
    is there any other Macedonian language at the world?

    Thanks dear Ancalimon
    Turkish words used for Earth is something new to me .

    Hi Frank
    Searching the answers make me have the name itself as my biggest source.
    There are some Macedonian authors what has write theirs opinions over name meaning at the way that Macedonia means Mother ,and thus I have got Make=Mother .
    Regards to you as well

    About this Arabic "دنيا" ("dunya") vs. Macedonian "dunja" situation .

    When I have compare Macedonian name trough its possible meaning
    with Hindi languages,these was result I have got .

    At the Google translate site I have choose English to Hindi translate
    http://translate.google.com/#en%7Chi%7C ... ther%0A%0A
    and typed these : World of Mother
    What I've got is word
    माँ की दुनिया
    and its roman variant written as
    Mām̐ kī duniyā
    When I press the sound bottom for hearing of translation I have been amazed with what I have heard

    Almost the very same pronounce as we do have
    Makedonija with a hard k.


    My apologies for my English .I know that is fare for been good.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2010
  8. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    For this discussion, it is important to distinguish modern Macedonian from the ancient Macedonian language which was not a Slavic language.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  9. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Comparing 'donia' with formally similar words from the 6400+ other languages than the ones already mentioned here, is an exercise in tedious futility. You'll probably find 100s of donia-like words in 100s of other languages.

    Wouldn't it be a bit better to first explain what your objections are against the etymology mentioned by Sokol (and which is so far the most plausible one, though not 100% sure).
    Not glorious enough? Not Macedonian enough? Not fanciful enough? Too Greek?



    Frank
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  10. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    Frank comparative methodology and Greek arguments of Macedonians name as offspring of "makednos" with meaning of:
    -long
    -tall
    -highlander
    compare with Hindi language
    Translation
    http://translate.google.com/#en|hi|long%2C%20tall%2C%20highlander%0A%0A


    Translate from: English
    Translate into: Hindi
    type: tall,long, highlander

    English to Hindi translation
    लंबे, लंबा, ज़मींदार
    Lambē, lambā, zamīndāra
    Contribute a better translation:

    as result will provide nothing
    not a single similarity neither coincidence

    Just wondering why ?

    I like this one :)
     
  11. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    What do you mean by this?

    That's possible, and I wish you a lot of fun.
    But EHL is not the place for this. Please read the rules.
     
  12. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian

    If you would like to guidance Macedonian language as part of Slavic linguistic group than thanks because at the present Macedonian is classified at pointed linguistic group , but if you are about to claim Macedonians as ethnic so called Slavs I have to remind you that Slavs is linguistics category only and Slavic migration theory will always remind as theory
    Yet, Is there any other Macedonian language ?
    And why a kind of distinguishing between language of Macedonians living at the present with theirs ancestors from the past?
    What does all of us know about language of ancient times Macedonians?
    As far as I know it is nothing recorded situation
     
  13. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    What did I thought when I wrote
    "I like this one" as comment to your words "an exercise in tedious futility"
    I have found myself at it
    I am offending nobody for all mine about 10 years net discussions experience .
    My apologies for any inconvenience
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  14. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    Comparative method is the one what I am keeping with at my researches.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method#cite_note-64


     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2010
  15. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Macedonian: modern Slavic language.
    Macedonian: Ancient Macedonian was the Indo-European language or Greek dialect of the ancient Macedonians.
    Limited doesn't equal "nothing".

    No no, my question was not about the exercise in tedious futility.

    I was wondering what you meant by the lines quoted below:

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  16. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    Frank
    Is this enough to claim that language of old times Macedonians was Greek or Greek dialect?
    Where is its grammar?

    Greeks will claim Koine as ancient Greek dialect too.
    So fare I have reach one Koine word only.Thats word lamb


    changes of V -J onto presen day Macedonian
    eg.
    Vaglen -Jaglen = Coal
    vazhe-jazhe = rope
    vazol-jazol=knot

    Let's see Koine word

    βάννε /'vannε/
    and change the first letters
    β/v -J
    βάννε /'vannε/
    Javve or janne or jagne =lamb

    todays Greek language will state αρνί=lamb

    todays Macedonian will state jagne =lamb
    janne as very close to present Bosnians dialectical *jannje or
    janje= lamb
     
  17. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    To start with, it's more than your previous claim ("As far as I know it is nothing recorded situation").
    I must add -- and my apologies if this would sound bad -- that I don't always understand what you mean. English is obviously not my native language either, but could you please try to express yourself in a clearer way.

    If you're looking for syntactic issues, then we'd beter stop. Glosses, names and words don't really give rise to incredible syntactic revelations.
    If you're looking for examples of phonological and morphological features, then please read the Wikipedia article again and have a look at the external links.

    I hope that you connect this side note about Koine Greek with a discussion on Macedonian and -donian. Koine Greek, by definition is the "common Greek (or ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος, the common dialect) [..] the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-Classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300)"
    What do you mean by this? Where? In modern days Macedonian?

    Besides, I do hope that we can bring this thread back to the original topic!

    F
     
  18. Homer MakeDonski

    Homer MakeDonski New Member

    Macedonian
    I was trying to say that according to comparative methodology meanings of word makednos (tall,long, highlander ) does not matched with any Hindi words .As they does not matching nothing(words or meanings) of any surrounded to the Greeks languages.
    As I believe final results of comparative must to be words equalization balancing similarity or meaning,what is called influence from one language to another. Or Greek language in makednos case does not made any influence to any other language world wide.

    Quote:
    So fare I have reach one Koine word only.Thats word lamb
    In modern day Macedonian we are spelling jagne for lamb
    at the past record is that we have Greek letters orthography as vanne
    Between the past and the present we have letters deviations case
    from v to j
    Unfortunately definitions are biggest Greek contributions to the modern World.
    I will do my best to express my self as much as I can.
    And yes lets us keep topic title
    please do what need to be done over it.

    Groetjes Поздрав
    to you
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  19. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Sure, we know little about ancient Macedonian. But what we know is that there is no trace of Slavic languages in the entire region (Southern Balkans) before the Byzantine period. Whatever uncertainty might be associated with the hypothesis that Ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect, your counter-hypothesis that it was a Slavic language like Modern Macedonian is grossly implausible.

    So, if you refuse to explore the theory of a Greek origin of the name because you think the evidence we have is not certain enough, then you should reject any idea of reconstructing the origin of the name from Modern Macedonian even more adamantly.
     
  20. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Let's see if I understood well.
    You took the word "makednos", and (or?) the words 'tall, highlander' etc. You then used Google translate and finally you looked for matches in Hindi?? And that's your comparative method?
    What do you mean by this?
    If the etymology mentioned by Sokol in a previous post is indeed to be accepted, then try looking for PIE mâk-, Greek mak(+ro)- and Sanskrit maha. But not, please, I beg you, not with Google translate.
    I have no idea about Modern (Slavonic) Macedonian (which is not the same as Ancient Macedonian, a language/dialect closely related to Ancient Greek). I'd be highly surprised that there is only one loan from Koine Greek in modern Macedonian, but, hey, why not.
    Anyway, what would be the problem with only one loan?

    There is not a single atom, let alone nucleus of something that resembles linguistic value in your explanations.

    Frank
     
  21. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    We recently got a few posts in EHL, which are, to put it mildly, a bit unsettling in the context of EHL. We do apologise for these recent threads and posts.

    Once in a while, we let this kind of threads linger on, because all in all it can be an opportunity to write a bit more about the generally accepted methods used in historical linguistics.

    However, we have our limits too.

    We'd like to remind all participants that EHL is not a venue for ideosyncratic theories, nor for a random collection of fringe statements which present themselves as some sort of theory.

    We do welcome everybody in EHL, we do welcome every question (well, almost every question). We do not expect people who ask the original questions or participate in the discussions to have a PhD in historical linguistics.

    But we do ask from the participants, by which I mean members who answer the questions or participate in the discussions following the original question, to have at least a basic understanding of the basic notions of basic historical comparative linguistics.
    All in all, that's not much different from e.g. the Italiano-Français forum, where participants are expected to have at least a basic knowledge of either Italian or French.

    As a general reminder, the rules of EHL can be found here (see also quote below).
    The rules, and especially rule 14 to 16 present the context, the boundaries of EHL. Future participants either accept those rules and post, or don't accept them and don't post.

    Before closing this thread, we'd like to add a few basic links from Wikipedia, which present excellent introductory information on historical linguistics and its methods.
    - historical linguistics
    - etymology
    - comparative method
    - internal reconstruction

    Needless to say that the links in the articles provide more valuable, introductory information.

    We'd also like to link once again to D. Ringe's paper "On calculating the factor of chance in language comparison" and Rosenfelder's texts "Deriving Proto-World with tools you probably have at home" and "How likely are chance resemblances between languages?".


    To summarise the point of this moderator's note: this thread is closed.

    Frank
    Moderator EHL



    PS:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
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