'Arabic' in Arabic letters

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by MonsieurAquilone, May 13, 2006.

  1. MonsieurAquilone Senior Member

    Auckland
    NZ - English
    Hello. I do request that which is entitled.

    Thank you very much.
     
  2. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Yes sir :) but we need a context. "Arabic" is and adjective, and adjectives in the Arabic language are variable.
    So if you want to say Arabic language, it's اللغة العربية
    If you want something else, please let us know :)
     
  3. MonsieurAquilone Senior Member

    Auckland
    NZ - English
    I was seeking 'Arabic' - as the language to which you have given an answer. Thank you very much. I will provide more context next time.
     
  4. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    That still doesn't help. Look at many Arab member's profile. It says عربي which translates as "Arabic". اللغة العربية means "the Arabic language", as Cherine pointed out, and some people use العربية to refer to the language, too.

    As you can see, there are too many possibilities to generalize it. :)
     
  5. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    You're very right :) العربية pronounced al-3arabeyya means Arabic, and refers to the Arabic language.
    Thanks Whodunit :)
     
  6. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Also, it is my understanding that while 3arabi عربي is ok in the dialects when referring to the language, it should really be العربية in modern standard since the word لغة is feminine.
     
  7. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Yes, using this word عربى alone like this is more of colloquial.
     
  8. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    العربية sounds too formal to my ears. I think عربي sounds friendlier.

    For example, on a menu where I could choose what language I wanted something in, I would prefer عربي to العربية.

    It's the same reason you see "français" on menus and not "le français," and "Deutsch" and not "das Deutsche."
     
  9. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    That's a good point too Elroy
     
  10. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    And that was the point -- العربية is used in formal registers, whereas عربي is used elsewhere. If you came here to Dearborn you would see streets signs advertising lawyers, accountants, and the like, who speak العربية , but you might see a restaurant saying عربي . If you were writing a paper, though, say for school, you would only write العربية , right?
     
  11. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Personally, if I'm writing something formal I'd say : العربية or اللغة العربية
     
  12. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    What if you were to fill out a form? Like:

    Name: ...
    Date and place of birth: ...
    Native language: ...

    Wouldn't you prefer العربية over عربية in such formailities?
     
  13. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Josh, yes, if I were writing a paper I would write only العربية.

    Whodunit, on the form I could go both ways - it doesn't really matter there as long as the meaning is communicated. Thinking about it now, I think I'd be more likely to write عربي, because it sounds much friendlier. In other words, if I were asked to list the languages I could speak, I would write عربي، إنجليزي، فرنسي، إسباني، ألماني and not العربية، الإنجليزية، الفرنسية، الإسبانية، الألمانية - which sounds way too stilted. I wonder what Cherine and others think.

    However, it would be either العربية or عربي - not عربية. I assume that was a typo.
     
  14. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Although I am not a native speaker, I can kind of feel the difference. I would agree that it sounds too formal, stilted, and maybe even somewhat impersonal. It may be because I learned a dialect before MSA and was used to sayingعربي . In fact it kind of came as a shock to me when my professor told us that عربي was not acceptable in the class and in MSA, generally speaking.
     
  15. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Precisely, adding the definite article (al) makes the word more formal. This is why I'd, personally, fill a form (I expect a form to be something formal) with العربية : simple and formal. عربى is informal, so I could use it in a non formal, or colloquial, context : باتكلم عربى، بيعرف عربى.... While in a formal (i.e. written text) I'd say : أتحدث العربية، يعرف العربية

    So, after all we're all right :) It's only a matter of context.
     
  16. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Exactly, Josh. Like you, all native speakers of Arabic learn a dialect before MSA - so عربي sounds personal and friendly whereas العربية sounds formal and academic.

    Interestingly enough, though, in Palestinian Arabic if we want to say "your Arabic is good" - we use the feminine plural - so we would say "3arabiyyaatak imnaa7." Is this done in Egypt?
     
  17. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Interesting indeed :) Because in Egypt we say : العربى بتاعك حلو/كويس/ممتاز.... (i.e. we use the masculine)
     
  18. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Yes, Egyptian Arabic frequently uses the preposition bitaa3 so it is easier, or sounds better, to use the masculine (at least in my opinion). I suspect that they say 3arabiyyaatak because 3arabiik sounds strange. In fact, I sometimes wonder how words that end in ي have possessive pronouns attached to them. Like how would you say your chair -- would it just be kursiik? I just always say il-kursi bitaa3ak. to me it sounds better.
     
  19. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    we also say kursiik, kursiyya :)
     
  20. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    The reason why I asked is that most of the native Arabic speakers here write عربي in their profile (as you did once), but they never use العربية. However, when I search some website on which you switch the language to Arabic, you'll often read العربية. And an Encarta language program suggests العربية for Arabic, too, whereas it says that "Deutsch" (and not "das Deutsche") is the translation of "German". Strange, isn't it? :)

    Of course, it was. :)
     
  21. Hibou57

    Hibou57 Senior Member

    faransa
    french & english
    Well, so this depend on the context... one should use العربية when used with the verb takalam (as an exemple) and one should use عربي when talking about the language for itself alone.

    There is nothing strange in it, this is the same in many other language... and then giving that, using العربية to talk about the language for itself should normally be a mistake... Am I right ?


     
  22. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Hi Hibou & welcome to the forum :)

    Actually, when I was speaking of context, I meant formal-informal context, not the meaning.
    So when we're «talking about the language for itself alone» we can either say عربى or العربية according to the "nature" of the context, not its context.

    Just my humble opinions, others may have a different one.

    Cherine
     
  23. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Here's another example of what I meant by the "nature of the context" : when speaking informally, we say : بتكلم عربى batkallem 3arabi (I speak Arabic), so it's not strange at all to simply put عربى in a user's profile on a "friendly" site/forum :) but in a more formal context (Encarta or any other site, book, reference....) it's more common to say العربية or اللغة العربية (though the first is shorter, simpler and o less correct than the former, longer form).
    As for using the article with Arabic and not with Deutsche, I think it's due to the peculiarities of each language. We say "le français" but not "français"; while we say "English" and not "the English" (speaking of language names)
     
  24. Hibou57

    Hibou57 Senior Member

    faransa
    french & english
    Thanks for your reception Cherine :)

    Ok, so something else comes into my mind : the use of the article is a kind of esteem mark ? As the use of « yaa » is before a name in arabic ? (I mean like in « yaa mohammad »)

    May it be that ?
     
  25. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Not esteem, it's rendering the thing definite. When we say عربية it's not clear what is Arabic (because 3arabeyya is an adjective) but when we add the article (al) it define what is Arabic : it's the language.

    As for yaa, it's a vocative mark or interjection, it's a way to show not esteem but calling the person whose name follows the yaa. When you say "ya Mohammad" it means : I call Mohammad.

    I hope it's clearer now. If not, don't hesitate to ask, but if you'll ask about something far from the subject of this thread, you'd better open a new one.
     
  26. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    We have an equivalent of "bitaa3" - we say "taba3" or "taa3" - so we could say "il3arabi taba3ak/taa3ak" but it sounds weird. I don't know if the "i"-argument holds because we do in fact say "kursiik" (although we could, of course, also say "il-kursi taba3ak/taa3ak").
     
  27. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Yeah, I was just throwing it out as a suggestion. So you could conceiveably say 3arabiik, right? Or would that just sound strange (not generally, but just with the word 3arabi)?
     
  28. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    If you say 3arabiik, you'll turn the word 3arabi (3arabeh?) which is feminine into masculine; something not known in Arabic talking (as much as I know).

    In Egypt we say 3arabiitak, kursiik, maDiik, mo3gabiinak (your fans)... :)
     
  29. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    I can't think of a situation in which I'd say "3arabiik." I guess it could very theoretically be used to mean "your Arab (male being)" but in that case "il-3arabi taba3ak" sounds exponentially better.
    Cherine, I think you're talking about cars while Josh is talking about Arabs. ;)

    In Palestinian Arabic, we don't use "3arabiyyeh" to mean car but we understand the Egyptian "3arabiyya" (we say "sayyaara"). "3arabeh" is used and means carriage. "3arabaay" is a stroller. ;)
    So do we, except for the first one. :) For the last one, we could also say "il-mu3jabiin fiik."
     
  30. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Well, it could be Arabs, but I meant the Arabic language since that is what we were talking about -- your Arabic (3arabiik).

    Thanks for the explanations and I am definitely one of your mu3gabinkum, guys.
     
  31. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Silly me :eek:

    But if he was speaking of the Arabic language, I'd noly repeat what I've said before : we say : العربى بتاعك
     
  32. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    And I'll repeat what I said earlier - we say عربياتك. :)

    I though you meant the word عربي in general - no matter what it meant, that is, if عربيك could be used at all, in any context whatsoever. That's why I said that it could theoretically be used to mean "your Arab (male being)" - but not "your Arabic (language skills)." In that case, we would use only the feminine plural.

    Shukran 3al-kalimaat il-7ilwe. Ay inte bti3jeb balad ya l-Amirkaani taba3na! ;)
     
  33. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    A probable reason for عربي being predominant over the MSA العربية is that the classical word for language was لسان not لغة, and in fact this is probably still strictly the case (one of many 'mistakes' in MSA; don't old books use لغة for 'synonym'?). In fact, the Qur'aan itself never says العربية and says لسان عربي
     

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