Arabs, Arabic

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by jmt356, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. jmt356 Senior Member

    هم عربيين.
    (They are Arabic)

    العربيين كريمين.
    (The Arabs are generous)
  2. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).

    Are you translating from Arabic or from English?
  3. jmt356 Senior Member

    From English.
  4. ystab Senior Member

    The plural form of عربي is عرب and the plural form of كريم is كرام. Therefore the translation should be: هم عرب and العرب كرام.
  5. jmt356 Senior Member

    I find this very hard to believe. I never knew of a noun that is made plural by removing the final ي. Are there other examples?
  6. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    أعجمي = عجم
    foreigners # a foreinger
  7. AndyRoo Senior Member

    Well it's correct. Some other nationalities do the same e.g. كردي/ الكرد , [Kurd/s]; فارسي/ الفرس [Persian/s].
  8. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    غجري - غجر
    تتاري - تتار
    ألباني - ألبان أو أرناؤوطي - أرناؤوط
  9. suma Senior Member

    English, USA
    jmt356, there are many examples.

    ترك / أتراك
    حبشي / أحباش
  10. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Generous is كُرَماء because كرام is used more for the meaning of being of good nature, coming from a good family, having good manners and morals...etc. Both words have كريم as the singular form.
  11. ystab Senior Member

    Good to know. Thanks.
  12. rzl62 Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    I have to point out that what the OP was originally trying would not have worked even if the words he chose took sound plurals, as he did not have them in the nominative case. So, rather than saying الليبيِّينَ كبيرِينَ, one must say الليبيُّونَ كبيرُونَ or maybe الليبيون كِبَار.
  13. jmt356 Senior Member

    I am confused by this post. I have never heard of a plural ending in "ون." I have always just heard e.g., "الاميركيين," "الليبيين," etc., even in the nominative (subject) form. Is adding "ون" only used in classical and MSA? I am somewhat confident that it is not used in the Syrian dialect. I have always heard, for example, "الليبيين كبار."

    On another note, isn't the plural of كبير always كبار? I did not understand why in one of rzl62's posts, "كبيرين" was written.
  14. rzl62 Member

    Chinese - Mandarin
    Hmm I'm studying Modern Standard Arabic, so maybe that grammatical difference has disappeared in some dialects. Is anyone familiar with this? Also, where is the post with كبيرين? I can't find it. My grammar book says both plurals are acceptable.
  15. jmt356 Senior Member

    I have looked up all of the examples given on this page of nouns supposedly made plural by dropping the final ي of the singular form, and have been able to confirm that only الباني fits a pattern where the plural is made by ONLY dropping the ي, as with عربي / عرب.

    As for the other examples:

    - كردي in the plural is الأكراد, not الكرد (at least according to my dictionary)
    - تركي in the plural is أتراك, not ترك (at least according to my dictionary);
    - أعجمي is made plural by removing both the أ and the ي;
    - فارسي is made plural by removing both the ا and the ي;
    - هندي is made plural by dropping the ي and adding a و;
    - حبشي is made plural by adding an أ and removing the ي.

    The following may be examples where the singular is made plural by dropping the final ي, but I cannot confirm as they are not in my dictionary:
    - تتاري
    - أرناؤوطي
    - غجري) غجري is not in my dictionary, which lists غجر as both singular and plural).
  16. jmt356 Senior Member

    Perhaps the distinction has been lost in some dialects. Can anyone confirm that these are correct translations from English of "They are French":

    To MSA: هم فرنسيون.
    To Syrian dialect: هم فرنسيين.
  17. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Most dialects replace ون with ين.
    You should read the post by rzl62 carefully; كبيرون/كبيرين does not exist.
    Your dictionary seems rather incomplete, and wrong since أحبش for example should be أحباش.
    The words we gave you are examples; there are many other ethnicities which work like this - sometimes several plurals exist, sometimes several words exist for the same ethnicity.
    Here are some more examples if you are still unconvinced:
    أشكنازي-أشكناز، يهودي-يهود، طلياني-طليان، أسباني-أسبان، ألماني-ألمان، إنجليزي-إنجليز، روسي-روس، صربي-صرب، عفري-عفر
  18. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    Yes, this is correct when مرفوع ('nominative'). When مجرور or منصوب it is فرنسيين.

    For example:
    يتكلم الفرنسيون اللغة الفرنسية
    رأيتُ ثلاثة فرنسيين في الشارع

    Actually, in this dialect it would be هنّ فرنساويين or هنّ فرنساويّة :) Sorry if that's extra confusing. The pronoun for they is different from MSA and looks more like the MSA feminine form, and the adjective is slightly different (though I wonder if فرنساوي is also acceptable standard Arabic?). There is no case distinction in colloquial like in standard Arabic, and so the equivalent of the sentences above:

    الفرنساويين/الفرنساويّة بيحكو فرنساوي
    شفت تلت فرنساويين بالشارع
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  19. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    In Egyptian I would probably use الفرنساوية
  20. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    Thanks إسكندراني. Actually, now that you bring this up, this plural might be more common in Syrian too. I hope a native speaker can confirm that.
  21. jmt356 Senior Member

    إسكندراني (Post 17):
    Yes, you are right about احباش. My dictionary was not wrong; I forgot to add the ا. Nonetheless, this confirms that حبشي is not a word that is made plural by only removing the ي, as is the case for عربي, unless حبش is also a plural form of حبشي, but my dictionary does not recognize it.
    As for the other examples cited by إسكندراني, I am now convinced that there are many nouns made plural by dropping the final ي, as in عربي / عرب.

    Clevermizo (Post 18):
    I actually believe “they” in the Syrian dialect is هِنِن (Hinin), not هنّ (hina).
    Also, I have never heard of the form فرنساويّة in Syria. Is that a plural masculine / mixed or feminine? I frequently hear فرنساوي / فرنساويين in Syria.

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