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are not <welcome /welcomed>

Discussion in 'English Only' started by Milkyway, Sep 17, 2006.

  1. Milkyway Senior Member

    earth
    Earthish
    Hi, everyone.

    what's the difference b/n welcome and welcomed?
    I checked Google and found out that both words are being used..
    Are they the same or different?


    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. la reine victoria Senior Member




    Hi Milkyway.

    Welcome is the present tense. "Welcome to the forums".

    Welcomed is the past tense. "I welcomed a new member to the forums."





    LRV
     
  3. Milkyway Senior Member

    earth
    Earthish
    Thank you, but I mean the usage as passives.

    For example, which one is correct?
    1. They are not welcome abroad.
    2. They are not welcomed abroad.
     
  4. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    1 - I'm stating that for whatever reason people who are already abroad do not want these people going there also.
    2 - I'm stating that when they go abroad they receive no welcome from the people there.
     
  5. la reine victoria Senior Member



    I agree with Tim.


    "You are not welcome in my country."

    "If you are planning to come to my country you would not be welcomed."



    LRV
     
  6. Jaxnurse New Member

    English
    I've been trying to find out the same answer to the question that Milkyway asked...and from reading the replies, I don't find it here. Specifically, here's the sentence in question:

    The couple that had to miss last week's class is (welcome/welcomed) to join us this Wednesday.

    I see that Google has many examples of both being used...like there is no real rule for the usage of either word. Of course, I'm not talking about past or present tense. The tense in that sentence is present, but both words seem to fit. HELP!
     
  7. Giordano Bruno Senior Member

    English, England
    The couple that had to miss last week's class is (welcome/welcomed) to join us this Wednesday.

    Welcomed cannot be used here.
     
  8. Dimcl Senior Member

    British Columbia, Canada
    Canadian English
    "Welcomed" is past tense. The couple will be joining you this Wednesday (in the future). Accordingly, they cannot currently be "welcomed" (past tense) when the occurence has not yet happened. In this context, "is" could be exchanged for "will be" and the sentence would read:

    "The couple that had to miss last week's class is/will be welcome to join us this Wednesday"
     
  9. MissFit

    MissFit Senior Member

     
  10. sam_net Junior Member

    Russian
    IMHO, the first one is an adjective (and relates to feelings or attitude) and the second - a verb (relates to actions).
     
  11. omarkos New Member

    English
    DIMCI is correct in his answer, but incorrect in his explanation:

    In the phrase:

    The couple that had to miss last week's class is (welcome/welcomed) to join us this Wednesday.

    it should be WELCOME, not because of tense, but because in this sentence WELCOME is used as an adjective and not a verb.

    to check, replace welcome in the sentnce with "free" or "happy" or "pleased" etc. All fit, no? Adjective!

    WELCOME, when used as an adjective is always spelled the same.

    WELCOME when used as a verb is always transitive, therefore to use WELCOMED it must be the past tense of something actually BEING actively (transitively) "welcomed".

    As in: The American Delegation was welcomed by the Prime Minister.

    That's what the dictionary says anyway.
     
  12. Mommy340 New Member

    English USA
    I would think that if the word "invited" could be substituted for the word in question, "welcomed" is appropriate.

    For example, "All are invited to attend Saturday's event" aka "All are welcomed to attend Saturday's event".

    FYI - invited is not necessarily past tense due to the "ed".

    You will be invited to my next party. Not past tense

    I invited you to my last party. Past tense
     
  13. Giordano Bruno Senior Member

    English, England
    "Welcome" to the board. But I'm amazed that as a native English speaker your ear would find no difference between invited and welcomed. Some verb may be followed by an infinitive and others may not. "Invite", Challenge" and "Defy" may be followed by an infinitive; "welcome" and "embrace" may not.
     
  14. Mommy340 New Member

    English USA
    Giordano, thanks for your response. As you may know, American English and European English vary - sometimes wildly. A lift on that side of the pond is an elevator - not so here - lift is a verb. Labour vs. labor and judgement vs. judgment are other examples of how different the English language is between the two regions.

    Many things did sound weird as we're being instructed in school, because we learn language at home and sometimes our parents simply don't speak proper English. In addition, many rules have exceptions that "help" to confuse us. My example for "welcome" and "welcomed" was not definitive; it was simply an instance in which "welcomed" was demonstrated to not be past tense, because of the suffix "ed".

    You may be aware that in American English, what was not acceptable at one point in history becomes acceptable with frequent usage. My ears bleed when I hear some people speak - even though what they're saying has become perfectly acceptable.

    American English is fluid and progressive. There are far fewer firm rules than there were when I was in grade school.

    I'm sure that scholars from both sides of the argument could debate for many years with no simple rule on how to use - the word in question.

    Thanks for your response. Have you checked out responses to this dilemma on other message boards? No two "answers" are the same. I will stay tuned.
     
  15. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    I have a fairly simple rule - I think! - "welcome" is an adjective and "welcomed" is a verb, so the first is a state and the second an action.

    So "since I saved his life I am always welcome in his home" and "when I arrive I am welcomed with a kiss".

    Giordano - I don't think Mommy was saying that "welcomed" and "invited" meant the same thing if substituted in the sentence, but that their grammatical sense was the same.
     
  16. Giordano Bruno Senior Member

    English, England
    Hi timpeac,

    No, I wasn't suggesting that they meant the same thing, only that they are used differently. The examples I gave were of different usages of verbs, e.g. "I defy you to do something" and "I welcome your doing something", and never "I welcome you to do something".
     
  17. spectrallypure Junior Member

    Perú, spanish
    Hum, honestly I don't seem to get it right. I understand what has been discussed above, which I believe could be summarized as follows:

    Welcome -> adjective: means blessed, wanted; received with pleasure (according to Babylon).
    Welcomed -> past tense AND past participle of "to welcome": to receive, accept warmly; accept willingly; greet with kindness (according to Babylon).

    However, as far as I recall, the past participle of a verb can also be used as an adjective (or even as an adverb!), right? In fact, Babylon gives the following acception for "welcomed" when used as an adjective:

    Welcomed -> adjective: received in a friendly manner, admitted warmly, received willfully and cordially.

    But this definition is basically the same as for "welcome", the adjective!!! So, excluding the cases in which what is needed is a verb (which should be fairly obvious anyway), this line of reasoning would still leave us with the problem of whether to use welcome or welcomed when what is needed is an adjective, taking into account that BOTH of these ARE (i.e., can function as) adjectives!

    An example to illustrate my confusion: The reply when someone says "Thanks!" to us is (i.e., seems to be, according to Google) "You are welcome". Why not "You are welcomed"? Am I not saying that this person is welcomed (<-BTW, notice usage of past participle here), that is, that he or she can always count with us and come to us when in need of help or whatever we have just provided to him or her?

    According to which objective, categorical criteria the adjective "welcome" is more fit than the adjective "welcomed" as a reply in the aforementioned case? ...I presume there are none!

    Any help in order to resolve this controversy is ...welcomed!!! :p
     
  18. omarkos New Member

    English
    I repeat the main point of my original post.

    WELCOME, when used as a verb is always transitive, meaning, someone or something hase to be "WELCOMED" by someone or somthing doing the welcoming.

    Therefore, clearly, "welcomed" is the the past participle of welcome, and, of course past participles often take on the role of an adjective.

    However, the verb "welcome" has an adjectival form which is "welcome" (I know, same as the verb form and very confusing), therefore, ONLY use the adjectival form "welcome" when describing a state of "feeling welcome" and only used "welcomed" when talking about some thing that happened in the past; "we were welcomed warmly at the Party"

    Before you got to the party you were "welcome" to come, when you arrived you were "welcomed" by the host.

    You can't be "welcomed" until you have been "welcomed" by someone. That's because "welcome" is always transitive. It is an exception to many standard rules of verb usage (having a unique adjectival form) Please do not try to apply them.

    .
     
  19. AdrienDeLaChicago

    AdrienDeLaChicago Senior Member

    Hey, everyone.

    I am having trouble with this one as well and I am an American! I am embarrassed.

    Would someone help me with what I am trying to express?

    I want to post a sign on my property that says:


    Unsolicited visits are not welcome/d.

    Would I use welcome or welcomed?

    What makes it confusing for me is that welcome does not have a past participle such as:

    Candy is "eaten" by many.

    When used with the verb "to be" in English we generally join the past particle to express what is generally accepted as typical or customary. So this is what confuses me?

    Other examples:

    Fish is generally "eaten" during Lent.

    Soccer is "played" on the soccer field.

    Spanish is "spoken" in Spain.

    Chinese is not typically spoken in Mexico.

    It is a passive voice style and that all that frequently used. But that is why I an inclined to write:

    Unsolicited visits are not "welcomed" here.

    It just seems to follow the rule of the examples I provided above.

    Can anyone elaborate please? :)
     
  20. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    Hi,

    But it does have a past participle:). The Queen was welcomed by the crowd.

    With questions like this I find it useful to think of a verb where the adjective and past participle form are different - such as open/opened.

    The window was opened by the boy (active verb so past participle). The window was then open (state so adjective). You could turn the first around into "the boy opened the window" but there is no comparable verb for the second, which highlights the difference.

    So translating that to your situation, both could work depending on what you mean. So you could say "unsolicited visits are not welcomed by neighbours when they occur". However, I would guess that as it's a sign your are talking about it's almost certainly the "state" version that you want, and therefore an adjective and so "unsolicited visits are not welcome".
     
  21. AdrienDeLaChicago

    AdrienDeLaChicago Senior Member

    Okay, yes welcome does have a past particle but I guess I should have explained how we use verbs in the past particle tense such as:

    Broken glass will cut your fingers.

    Determined people are successful.

    Undetermined people are lazy.

    Aren't the examples above before the past participles adjectives?

    I appreciate the swift response by the way and thank you very much. :)

    Thankfully I did type WELCOME and so apparently I am correct. But it was just a lucky guess so far. :)
     
  22. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    You're welcome;).

    Well, in something like "broken glass will cut your fingers" "broken" is the past participle of "to break" but it is functioning as an adjective here. Althernatively, you could also legitimately say that this is not a past participle here but an adjective which has the same form as the past participle. That's why I find it useful to consider a common verb such as "open" where the adjectival form is not the same as the past participle.

    I'm sure you can see the difference between "the window is open" and the "window is opened". The first describes the state and the second the active performance of the verb. That can be verified by the fact that "the window is open" can't be followed by "by John" and the second can, if you wish, be specified further by "by John".

    It's exactly the same with "welcome" versus "welcomed" - the first is an adjective and the second a past participle (in the pure sense - the verb is actively being performed). So you can say "the Queen was welcomed by the crowd" but not "the Queen was welcome by the crowd" and conversely "you are welcome to pick any cake you want" and not "you are welcomed to pick any cake you want".

    So in your situation you are stating that unsolicited visits are not desirable - in other words you are simply describing them and so need the adjective "welcome". Although I'm sure you don't mean this, it is conceivable that you are stating that when they occur unsolicited visits do not receive a warm reception, in which case you would say "welcomed".

    Imagine it's Hallowe'en. Now you might be someone who absolutely hates opening the door to begging kids who just want some chocolate from you. But also, if such kids do knock you will still answer with a smile and give them some chocolate because you don't want to be nasty. In this case, Hallowe'en callers are not welcome but if they come along they are nonetheless welcomed!

    I hope I've made it a bit clearer:).
     
  23. AdrienDeLaChicago

    AdrienDeLaChicago Senior Member

    Thank you VERY much Rocker/Mod/Tim.

    That was a wonderfully delineated explanation.

    I appreciate your input.

    Thank you. :)
     
  24. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    You're welcomed welcome don't mention it.:D Glad to help.:)
     
  25. winvad New Member

    Singapore
    English
    It is correct to say or write 'unsolicited visits are not welcomed by my neighbours' or 'unsolicited visits are not a welcome, to my neighbours'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  26. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    It's effectively the same question as above. Both are possible - but I would guess that you need "welcome". "Are not welcomed" would mean that "when unsolicited visits occur they are not met with a welcome (ie applause, a cup of tea etc:))" whereas I guess you mean "any (future) visits will not be appreciated (met with pleasure)".
     
  27. ribran

    ribran Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - American
    I hope this doesn't seem ridiculously obvious, but no one has mentioned it yet:

    He is always welcome in their home.
    He is always welcomed into their home.

    Actually, I am surprised to see so many examples of "welcomed in" on Google. It sounds very odd to me.
     
  28. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    "Welcomed in" can be grammatical when it means "received a welcome". "He was welcomed in Spain" means something like "when he got off the plane the mayor was there to shake his hand".
     
  29. ribran

    ribran Senior Member

    Austin, Texas
    English - American
    Yes, of course. You're right. What I meant was that I was surprised there were so many examples of "welcomed in their home." Obviously I didn't make that clear. :thumbsdown:
     
  30. english4france New Member

    French - France
    Thanks a lot for your explanations, but what about:


    Gifts are always welcome

    Gifts are always welcomed ?
     
  31. winvad New Member

    Singapore
    English
    Gifts are always a welcome.
    Gifts are always welcomed.
     
  32. Cagey post mod

    California
    English - US
    No, we would not use 'a'.
    Gifts are always [a] welcome.
    Otherwise, I don't see much difference between these two:
    Gifts are always welcome.

    Gifts are always welcomed.

     
  33. mec4u New Member

    English
    The passive use of welcome vs welcomed depends on whether the the actual arrival or attendance of the intended guest(s) was consummated.

    For example, you would say, "All my friends were welcome to join the party." Here you would use 'welcome' because there is no inference that the invited friends actually attended.

    However, you would say, "All my friends were welcomed at the door." Here you would use 'welcomed' because the prepositional phrase, 'at the door', infers that some or all of your friends indeed actually arrived. Therefore, you would need the past participle 'welcomed' in the predicate structure.
     
  34. mec4u New Member

    English
    You are CORRECT! Because again in this case the couple is invited to join us Wedenesday, but the actual occurrence is not consummated. You can use 'welcomed' in a future sense (in which the action is obviously not yet consummated) when there is a subordinate clause stated in the subjunctive mood, therefore requiring a past participle in the predicate structure of the main clause. For example, "The couple will be welcomed, IF THEY WISH TO COME BACK NEXT WEDNESDAY."
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
  35. stephenlearner Senior Member

    Chinese
    I remember that there was a popular slogan in Beijing before the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games.
    If I translate it word by word, it is: Beijing welcomes you.
    Is this sentence directly translated from my mother tongue natural?
    I feel there are several problems with it.
    First, Beijing is a place, not a person. Place cannot do the action of welcoming somebody.
    Second, even though we personify Bejing, making it sound like a person, I think the main point in the original sentence is about the feeling "somebody is welcome", not about the action "welcoming, or greeting, or receiving".
    So I think if it is translated like "You are welcome in Beijing", it is closer to its original intention, and more appropriate.

    What do you think?

    Thanks a lot!
     
  36. Tazzler Senior Member

    Maryland
    American English
    "Beijing welcomes you" is perfect though. "Beijing" is to be understood as the residents of Beijing, not the buildings and streets and such. It's a standard use of the verb "welcome". You understand, "we welcome you all to Beijing", right? So that's easily changed to "Beijing welcomes you".

    "you are welcome" without any following verb is first and foremost understood as a response to "thank you".
     
  37. stephenlearner Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thank you very much for your clarification.
     

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