Are the words Dervish and Druid Cognates?

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by mojobadshah, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. mojobadshah Senior Member

    Are the words Dervish and Druid Cognates?
  2. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    No, they're not. See here and here.
  3. mojobadshah Senior Member

    That doesn't prove very much. It doesn't say what the PIE root is. Originally Druid was pronounced Druvid which is almost like Dervish apart from sh > d. From what I understand Dervish is rooted in Avestan and also that the Celts never actually called themselves Druids. It was Ceasar who first called the Celts druids. You sure he didn't borrow it from the Dervishes?
  4. ireney

    ireney Modistra

    Greek Greece
  5. Treaty Senior Member

    Dervish (Pahl. driyoš, NPers darvīš, also daryûzeh) originally meant "poor", "needy" and sometimes "beggar" (esp. daryûzeh). The current mystical terminology comes after that some religious people abstained from all terrestrial benefits and pleasures in favour of celestial rewards, thus became poor and needy "darvīš"es (cf. to monks, esp. of Franciscan order). This usage didn't probably exist before 10th century.
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Yes, and in this meaning darwīš is a calque on Arabic faqīr “poor” > “beggar”.
  7. mojobadshah Senior Member

    To add to this list is Avestan drigu "poor" (see Ahunwar prayer). Anyone know what the PIE root of this Avestan form is? That would ultimately settle the question.
  8. popckorn

    popckorn Senior Member

    Borderlands - México
    Spanish - Mexican
    The "begger" meaning of Dervich is fitting.

    It is a common belief that illumination can render one mad. It would be not far fetched to suppose those mad beggers in the street are actually closer to the knowledge of Him.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  9. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
    That or it could refer the vow of poverty that many very religious individuals take in Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity etc. I can't remember the details but it's common cross culturally for some very religious folks to forgo material positions and live off the kindness and offering of others.
  10. sotos Senior Member

    The meaning "poor, needy" may be an indication that dervish is cognate to druid. The root dru- must be the one meaning "wood, forest". From this we have the Gr. drys (oak), duri or dory (lance), drymos (forest) and, according some Greek scholars, the Dorians. Some Greek scholars believe that this Greek "tribe" originally was a social class, i.e. a lower rural class myceneans who lived in mountainous and wooded areas. Their professions were relevant to forests (logging, charcoal making, etc) and the word "Dorian" came to mean "vulgar, uncivilized" and therefore "inferior" . The mythical "descent of Dorians" was a come-back of that class from the mountains to the plains and the cities that were dominated by the "Myceneans" (the bourgouasie of that time). This meaning of "inferior class" possibly survived somewhere in Asia Minor and was taken again by the islamo-neo-platonic sect of Sufis in late Byzantine era. The early Sufi masters where christian converts with good classical education. Plato was venerated as "Saint" till 19th c. in some places of Asia Minor and Middle East. Dervishes were the first muslims that spread Islam in the Balkans, and were very successful because their faith was close to christianity and Hellenic tradition.
    Bibliography available at request.
  11. asanga Member

    Beekes 'Etymological Dictionary of Greek doubts whether δωριεῖς is a reflex of PIE *doru- "tree", and it seems even the earliest reference to Dorians in Homer uses it exclusively as an ethnonym, not a social class.

    As Modobadshah has pointed out, NP darvīš is a reflex of Avestan drigu-. But what is drigu- derived from?

    Wiktionary gives the etymology of obsolete English tray "trouble, annoyance" as Proto-Germanic *tregô "mourning, grief" from PIE *dregʰ- “unwilling, sullen, slack”, which fits very well. But there's no reference to this meaning in Pokorny or LIV, only *dregʰ- "to hold fast, to fix". LIV does have *dreǵʰ- "to grieve", although it cautions that the proposed meaning is extremely uncertain. And shouldn't PIE ǵ yield Avestan z rather than g?

    Incidentally, PIE *dregʰ- is also suggested as a source for NP درخت "tree", through a ppp. "a fixed, unmoving thing = tree". Or is there another explanation for خت, if the word is a reflex of *doru-?

    The Etymological Dictionary of the Iranian Verb gives Parthian drxs- "to endure" from *dregʰ-. Combined with prefix ni- it yields nydrynj- "to keep down, subdue", prefix ham- handrynj- "to condemn, defeat". This is semantically quite close to "downtrodden, wretched", so perhaps Avestan drigu- is also related to this proto-Iranian *dra(n)ǰ- "to fix, fasten, hold".
  12. mojobadshah Senior Member

    According to Charles Vallencey the word druid is akin to the Persian Daru which is supposed to signify a priestly caste. I don't know of any priestly caste named Daru. Does anyone? This is why I thought maybe he was referring to the Dervish. Interestingly he gives the Persian darakht "tree" as a cognate of Druid too, which would explain the dental at the end of these cognates, but I don't see the Persian "t" hardening to a "d."
  13. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Keep in mind that book dates from 1804. Mallory, in the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, still connects Druid with *doru- "wood, tree," but makes no mention of dervish. I think a connection between dervish and Druid is unlikely. The Avestan derivative of *doru- is dāuru-, and drigu- doesn't appear to be related semantically or otherwise.
  14. aruniyan Senior Member

    There is a Tamil word Thuravi, from the root verb Thura(to renounce, to leave away).
    Thuravi are monks who rennounce the worldly pleasures and they come out of family life and travel to places, this way they achieve enlightenment.

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