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ba3da بعد

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Tensor78, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    Hi,

    In MSA, "ba3da" means "after", and "after" can be used as both a preposition in English and a conjunction.

    Example: (Preposition) I am after him in line. (Conjunction) I went after he went.

    In MSA, I have only seen the verbal noun used with "ba3da" when using "ba3da" as a conjunction.

    Example: I went after he went = dhahabtu ba3da dhahaabihi.

    But, can I use other constructs for the second clause?

    For example, can I use the subjunctive?

    I went after he went = dhahabtu ba3da an yadhhaba ?? Does this work?

    What about just following with a verb in the indicative perfect?

    I went after he went = dhahabtu ba3da dhahaba ???

    My instincts tell me that the last one is incorrect. I've never seen anything like that before in Arabic, so I'm pretty sure that it's wrong. I'm new though.

    It seems that in Arabic, "ba3da" is used only as a preposition and must take some noun form after it, not a pure verb. Is this correct?

    Thanks for your input.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  2. barkoosh Senior Member

    Beirut
    Arabic
    Yes you can say ذهبتُ بعد أن ذهبَ dhahabtu ba3da an dhahaba (not yadhhaba). For "I'll go after her goes", you can say سأذهب بعد أن يذهب sa'adhhabu ba3da an yadhhaba.

    Another way to say "
    I went after he went" is: ذهبتُ بعدَما ذهبَ dhahabtu ba3dama dhahaba.
     
  3. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    Thanks for replying. However, I'm not interested in the sentence I used as an example really. I'm interested in the structure. So, I have some questions:


    Wait a minute; you're using " 'an " here? I thought 'an required the subjunctive after it. What are the rules governing the use of 'an exactly?

    Are you saying in effect that the subjunctive can't be used if the tense of the first clause is the perfect?

    What if I want to use the present tense in both clauses?

    Example: I go after he goes = 'adhhabu ba3da 'an yadhhaba = 'adhhabu ba3da dhahaabihi. Correct?

    This makes sense. However, here can I use the verbal noun also?

    Example: I'll go after he goes = sa'adhhabu ba3da dhahaabihi Is this right?
    Can you explain this use of "maa" please? I'm still learning grammar. Is this use of "maa" somehow connected with the relative pronoun "maa" ?

    I assume that all of the above also holds for all other prepositional conjunctions, correct? Like qabla as well?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  4. barkoosh Senior Member

    Beirut
    Arabic
    In most of the cases, "an" precedes a verb in the imperfect, making it in the subjunctive. That's why it's very common to say that "an" is a أداة نصب. However, "an" is actually called حرف مصدريّ (no idea what's that in English). It precedes a verb in the imperfect most of the times, making it in the subjunctive. However, it can precede a verb in the perfect. In that case, "an" has no effect on the verb. Please note that this use of "an" with a verb in the perfect is not as common as using "...maa" + verb in the perfect.
    Nope. When I said "dhahabtu ba3da an dhahaba (not "yadhhaba)", I was referring to the last verb. I meant: dhahabtu ba3da an dhahaba, not dhahabtu ba3da an yadhhaba, just to convey the meaning of the past.
    Yes, but it's better (to convey the idea more clearly) to say: "I'll go after he goes = sa'adhhabu ba3da 'an yadhhaba = sa'adhhabu ba3da dhahaabihi". Unless you mean "I [usually] go after he goes".
    Yes, it is.
    This "maa" has nothing to do with the relative pronoun "maa". There are many different "maa's" in Arabic. One of them is called ما الكافّة (also, no idea what's that in English, but الكافّة could be translated "the restraining") which can come after different words and cause some restraining to them. For example:
    بعدما = بعد + ما
    قبلما = قبل + ما
    عندما = عند + ما
    ربّما = ربّ + ما
    etc
    بعدَ usually requires a noun in the gerund after it; as in بعد ذهابِه. However, the added "maa" restrained بعد from requiring this. That's why you can say بعدما ذهب.

    The subject is very complicated and almost nobody delves into it. We just accept the fact that we have بعد and بعدما,‎ قبل and قبلما,‎ عند and عندما, etc.

    PS: no idea if this holds for all prepositional conjunctions. But at least it does for many of them.
     
  5. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    Thanks. Very informative. Would you say, though, that my original assertion is correct:

    ba3da and similar words can not take pure verbs directly after them. There must be some intervening connective particle in such cases. They are prepositions and must be modified to become conjunctions.
     
  6. barkoosh Senior Member

    Beirut
    Arabic
    I presume you're right.
     
  7. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    Thanks.
     

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