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BCMS: c(ij)elo vr(ij)eme

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by EdnoMomche, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. EdnoMomche New Member

    Croatian
    This thread was actual before few months in Serbian media because some singer on TV all the time spoke cijelo vrijeme, and they said that it is not grammatically correct.

    But in Croatia and Bosnia you can really often hear: cijelo vrijeme and it is correct.

    So in Serbian there is only svo/sve vrijeme or what?
     
  2. jakowo Senior Member

    German
    A basic distinction among the Serbocroatian dialects is in the reflex of the long Common Slavic vowel jat (ѣ), usually transcribed as *ě.
    Depending on the reflex, the dialects are divided into Ikavian, Ekavian, and Ijekavian, with the reflects of jat being /i/, /e/, and /ije/ or /je/ respectively.
    The long and short jat is reflected as long or short */i/ and /e/ in Ikavian and Ekavian, but Ijekavian dialects introduce a ije/je alternation
    to retain a distinction.

    Standard Croatian and Bosnian are based on Ijekavian, whereas Serbian uses both Ekavian and Ijekavian forms (Ijekavian for Bosnian Serbs,
    Ekavian for most of Serbia). Influence of standard language through state media and education has caused non-standard varieties
    to lose ground to the literary forms.

    ---------Ekavian Ikavian Ijekavian
    *vrěme vreme vrime vrijeme.
     
  3. itreius Senior Member

    Assembly
    OP is not talking about the Yat reflex.

    He's talking about the collocation cijelo vrijeme which is (at least to me) the normal way to say all the time. But some googling shows that the prescribed norm in Serbian is sve vreme, which I didn't know about before and which sounds ungrammatical to me (but apparently isn't in Serbian).
     
  4. jakowo Senior Member

    German
    @itreus
    "He's talking about the collocation cijelo vrijeme which is (at least to me) the normal way to say all the time. But some googling shows that the prescribed norm in Serbian is sve vreme, which I didn't know about before and which sounds ungrammatical to me (but apparently isn't in Serbian)"


    Another question: How would you say that in Kajkavian: celo vreme or celi cajt?
    (Not kidding, I really heard the word 'cajt' in Zagreb).
     
  5. itreius Senior Member

    Assembly
    Yes, 'cajt' is used a lot, however, in my own idiolect it's limited to expressions like for example imaš cajta? (do you have time?).

    For OP's expression, I'd most likely use ciele vrieme when speaking Kajkavian (the ie being a close-mid front unrounded vowel). My usage of that construction in Kajkavian is probably due the influence of standard language. I've heard some Kajkavians say sef cajt (but you wouldn't find that in an urban speech) and sef/ves čas.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  6. jakowo Senior Member

    German

    Doubtlessly.
    I'm quite often there, and my Zagrabian friends pronounce the jat (ѣ) basically ekavian, e.g. lepe (lijepo), dete, reč, čovek, razmeti, mesto, etc.
    There is a small admixture of ijekavian forms, e.g. sjeme, sijati, prije, though some of them would say seme, sejati, pre.
    Zdravobóg.
     
  7. Милан Senior Member

    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Serbian (Србија)
    In Serbian both c[ij]elo vr[ij]eme and sve vreme are standard, correct forms. Svo vreme is wrong, cause svo as a word does not exist in standard Serbian. Most people in Serbia believe that c[ij]elo vr[ij]eme is wrong cause, they say, doesn't make any sense. Of course, Pravopis Matice srpske allows both forms but prefers sve vreme.

    celo vreme, bolje sve vreme
     
  8. thegreathoo Senior Member

    Srpski
    Cijelo Vrijeme is correct, i svo vrijeme is correct. Sve vreme is incorrect. Sv(e) is reserved for plural feminine form and vreme is not of feminine form nor plural, at least in South Slavic. Sve vreme maybe OK in Bulgarian or Macedonian. (In South Slavic there is only "Onaj" - musculine, "Ono"-undetermined, i "Ona"-feminine for singular form. In plural form, it is "Oni" - musculine, "Ona" for undetermined, and "One for feminine.)
     
  9. itreius Senior Member

    Assembly
    Sve is also the prescribed sg. neuter form. (sav/sva/sve)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  10. thegreathoo Senior Member

    Srpski
    In plural form. Vrijeme is not in plural form. Maybe in Kajkavian, but not in BCS proper. I do not dispute that "sve vrijeme" is in use in some places. It is simply not a proper way of saying it. BTW Kajkavian is not a measure of BCS language because it is mudded up from Slovenian influence, same goes for Pirotski Sprski dialaect and others.
     
  11. itreius Senior Member

    Assembly
    Uh, I'm not going from the PoV of Kajkavian. Kajkavian would use so, vso, etc.

    Sve is literally the prescribed singular neuter form in standard Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (although where I come from svo is more dominant).

    Look up a grammar book.

    I'm not sure what you mean by mudded up by influence. Common Kajkavian and Slovenian features are mostly a result of retention (archaisms), rather than influence of one on the other.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  12. Милан Senior Member

    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Serbian (Србија)
    Well maybe in your language, but in Serbian cijelo vrijeme and sve vreme are both correct. As I said, I have Pravopis Matice srpske and simply svo is not a word in standard language.
     

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