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BCS - Da + present vs Infinitive with intervening words

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by Tassos, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    Continuing our discussion on Da + present vs infinitive, I've read something interesting in R.Alexander's book.
    She says that when another word (such as a pronoun object) comes between the two linked verbs then
    da + present becomes "more acceptable" for all the speakers regardless of nationality.

    Google seems to agree as
    Želim vam reći
    yields 1.050.000 results, while
    Želim da vam kažem yields 3.050.000 results (and already in the first page there are quite a few from Croatia)

    Still of course, I'd like the opinion of the native speakers on the subject.
     
  2. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    I don't think there is something new to be said on this matter that hasn't been mentioned before, in the other thread. Again, Croats prefer infinitive, while others prefer da+present or have no preference at all. Furthermore, some people may perceive different meanings of those two constructions in some sentences. I believe that putting a pronoun object doesn't make any difference for those who prefer infinitive constructions.

    Verbs reći and kazati may not be a good example for comparison. Kazati is a perfective verb, but when used in present it becomes imperfective and means govoriti.
    Reći is also perfective, but its present forms reknem/rečem might be considered as colloquialism by some and are being avoided. Not in Montenegro, though.
     
  3. Tassos

    Tassos Senior Member

    I gave this example because it is a fairly common phrase (the results prove this) and because R. Alexander gives the two verbs as equivalent in the following example in her book:
    Zaboravio sam da vam kažem vs Zaboravio sam vam reći
    The other example she gives is
    Nije želio da nam piše vs Nije nam želio pisati
     
  4. aprendiendo argento

    aprendiendo argento Senior Member

    Premantura - Croatia
    Croatian (Chakavian)
    In Croatian:

    Želim da is used only if the subject and the object are different:

    Želim da dođeš na moj rođendan (I want you to come to my birthday party) {I vs you, therefore: DA}
    Želim ići na tvoj rođendan (I want to go to your birthday party). {I vs I, therefore: infinitive
    }


    With
    ne htjeti, it is different:

    Neću imati problema (I will not have any problems)
    futurity
    Neću da imam problema (I do not want to have any problems)
    willingness

    (With
    ne želim both are heard: Ne želim da imam problema ~ Ne želim imati problema,
    and both are used for (non)willingness).


    Overall, in Croatian dialects (Kajkavian and Chakavian) infinitive is many times used instead of DA:
    Gdo ti je rekel iti na blagajnu?
    Who told you to go to the cashier? (Kajkavian dialect)
    Tko ti je rekao ići na blagajnu?
    (Zagreb speech, a mix of Shtokavian and Kajkavian)
    standard/Shtokavian Croatian: Tko ti je rekao da ideš na blagajnu?

    -He said he would come, but he didn't come-:
    Rekel je priti, al ni (Kajkavian =Rekao je da će doći ali nije)
    Reka je doć ali nije (Chakavian=Rekao je da će doći ali nije).

    With assumptions/suppositions:
    Mora da se šališ (You gotta be kidding) (colloquial Croatian) assumption/supposition
    Zasigurno se šališ (the same as above in standard Croatian) assumption/supposition
    Moraš se šaliti (You have to joke). obligation
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  5. aprendiendo argento

    aprendiendo argento Senior Member

    Premantura - Croatia
    Croatian (Chakavian)
    Nije želio da nam piše in Croatian is stronger (although incomplete), it may be understood as

    He didn't want to do something or to buy something in order to write to us.


    Nije želio (kupiti olovke) da nam piše. :) It means that not only he didn't want to write to us, he wanted to avoid writing to us at any cost. :)
     

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