BCS: Kako da ti kažem moja draga da mi nisi više tako draga

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by sesperxes, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    Dear foreros,

    in this sentence "Kako da ti kažem moja draga da mi nisi više tako draga" (it's from a text of Dino Merlin), I understand that "kako da ti kažem" means "kako trebam reći tebi / kako treba da kažem tebi" itd. itd.

    Am I right?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  2. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    Why 'treba'? It's simply a question of ability, 'How will/could I tell you...' I have a hunch that Spanish has a closer translation than English, if only I spoke it... :D
     
  3. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    Therefore, "kako da pripremam hemendeks bez šunke? would be the same that "kako može da pripremam / kako mogu pripremati..."?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  4. tosamja Senior Member

    Serbian - Bosnia
    Kako da pripremim hemendeks bez šunke? (better use "pripremiti" than "pripremati")

    Kako mogu da pripremim... / kako mogu pripremiti ...

    And yes, all these constructions mean basically the same, except that in Serbian (and other Slavic languages) we sometimes drop the modal verb can (moći) in this context: one would never say "kako mogu da ti kažem volim te?" but only "kako da ti kažem volim te?". On the other hand, in the ham and eggs sentence, you can keep "mogu", it wouldn't sound too bad, but the most natural way would be I guess to say: "Kako se priprema hemendeks?"
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  5. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    I don't think there was a verb to be dropped here in the first place. Check the following development:

    1. Kako napraviti pitu? 'How to make a pie?'
    2. Kako se pravi pita? 'How does one make a pie?'
    3. Kako [ja] da napravim pitu? 'How do I make a pie?'


    Constructions 1) and 2) are impersonal, involving infinitive or impersonal reflexive. Construction 3) is personal, and involves a verb phrase (clause). However, no additional verb is semantically involved; I would argue that English grammar is "anomalous" here, requiring a "dummy" verb do (or can, will), serving only syntactical function
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  6. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    In these sentences, the "context" is related to "ability, possibility" (moći), but in constructions like "sada ne znam šta da radim", the context would be related to "need" (trebati), isn't it?

    So, are there more contexts/verbs where we can drop out modal verbs? (I'm thinking about morati, umeti, znati, ... and questions introduced by ko, koji, koliki, gde, kad, zašto... ).

    Said otherwise, when native speakers "feel" that these constructions are more fluent/correct than the full sentence with the modal verb?

    Hvala svima.
     
  7. tosamja Senior Member

    Serbian - Bosnia
    As I said, we don't say "kako mogu da ti kažem volim te?" but rather "kako da ti kažem volim te?", dropping the "moći", which you might call dummy, but for people thinking in other languages an additional verb is quite logical to be used here. My point is that the constructions using "moći", while sounding awkward in Serbian, are definitely not grammatically incorrect, and semantically are almost equivalent, so they can help foreign learners (as a certain bridge) to digest better sentences like "kako da ti kažem volim te?".
     
  8. tosamja Senior Member

    Serbian - Bosnia
    I don't think really of the sentence "kako da ti kažem volim te?" as having a specific modal dropped. It's just like that: when you don't know (or can't, or don't dare, or whatever the reason) how to say I love you, then you wonder "kako da ti kažem volim te?". It seems to me that the reason why one is in doubt how to say I love you is just not revealed.

    On the other hand,
    "sada ne znam šta da radim" is simply "I don't know what to do know", identically built as in English.
     
  9. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    I just think that you both focus too much on that elusive modal verb, i.e. analyse the syntax through skewed English perspective. Different languages have different ways of expressing it. Unfortunately, my knowledge on Sesperxes' native Spanish is too superficial, so instead of trying to make parallels, I'll just go into analysis of BCS syntax.

    Basically, Kako da joj kažem? is near-synonymous with Kako ću joj reći? The same goes with other wh- words:

    Kad da joj to kažem? ~ Kad ću joj to reći?
    Gde da joj to kažem? ~ Gde ću joj to reći?
    Zašto da joj to kažem? ~ Zašto ću joj to reći?


    The difference is in mood; future tense is indicative, and asserts that I'm certainly going to tell her, just asking how/when/where/why. The da-sentences are... sort of subjunctive, and denote speaker's insecurity and even anxiety. Kako da joj kažem? -- 'OMG should I tell her and how I'm going to tell her?'
     
  10. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    OK, McKey, let's close this thread!
     
  11. Vanja Senior Member

    Serbian
    Oh, just want more thing:
    "Kako da ti kažem moja draga = kako to da ti sauopštim, kako da skupim hrabrost i na koji način sada ovu lošu vest da ti kažem.... (a da ne planeš/naljutiš/rasplačeš... gađaš me pikslom... )
    da mi nisi više tako draga"
     
  12. žaoka New Member

    Novi Sad
    Serbian, Serbia
    Vanja got the point.
     
  13. qwqwqw Senior Member

    Bayern, D
    Bulgarisch
    A šta znači "pikslom"?
     
  14. tosamja Senior Member

    Serbian - Bosnia
    piksla ili pepeljara = ashtray (in English)
     

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