BCS: vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro?

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by sesperxes, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    Hello Foreros,

    in a recent Serbian film I’ve seen (Sestre, 2011), one of the sisters shouts to another girl: “vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro?”. (actually, her sister was blind drunk and filled up with pills, and I guess that she intended to say "my sister is ill" ).

    I would say “vidiš da mi sestra nije dobro”, following the pattern of sentences with possessive dative like “žena mi je strpljva=moja žena je strpljva” or “Gde ti je kuća? = Gde je tvoja kuća?”.

    Am I wrong?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  2. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    I would say that those two expressions carry different meanings.

    Sestri mi nije dobro - at the moment my sister doesn't feel good for some reason (she's drunk, has a headache, feels sick, etc.)

    Sestra mi nije dobro - this usually means that she has some condition or illness, and/or her medical diagnosis isn't good.

    But it probably wouldn't be a big mistake to use one expression instead of another. You just need some context to explain the whole situation better.
     
  3. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    Generally, adverbs dobro and loše have dual expressions, with slightly different meanings.

    Dobro mi je : Dobro sam
    Loše mi je : Loše sam


    The first ones, with dative, have the following meanings: a) physical health, but with a connotation of temporariness: 'I feel good/I feel sick' b) General well/ill being (without particular reference to health): Dobro mi je u životu 'I'm doing well'; Loše mi je kad pomislim na posao 'I get sick when I think about the job.'

    The second ones refer to physical health and/or general mood, as a permanent or temporary state.

    They overlap when they refer to an immediate physical condition: so, one may ask you either Jesi li dobro? or Je li ti dobro? 'Are you feeling well?', to which you'd reply either Dobro sam or Dobro mi je.
     
  4. Vanja Senior Member

    Serbian
    Why do I always see thing differently? :D

    vidiš da mi sestra nije dobro :tick: = vidiš da moja sestra nije dobro
    vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro (twisted meaning, merges her sister and her into one) = vidiš da mojoj sestri nije dobro - vidiš da meni sestra nije dobro
     
  5. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain


    If instead of neutral adjectives dobro/loše, I use the possessive construction with whatever masculine/femine adjective, are both expressions valid?


    Sin mi je miran = Moj sin je miran (My son is quiet)
    Sinu mi je miran= Meni sin je miran (To me/for me my son is quiet???)
     
  6. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    And how do you explain Vidiš da mami nije dobro vs. Vidiš da mama nije dobro? Both are grammatical. Possessive dative mi is a red herring here.

    No. As far as I can tell, only dobro and loše (and their comparatives) behave in this dual way. Other adverbs take one form or another (e.g. Teško mi je but not *Teško sam.)
     
  7. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    No. You must use neuter form and not every adjective makes sense.

    Sinu mi je miran is not a complete sentence. Adjective miran here refers to something that follows it. For example: Sinu mi je miran san - My son has calm sleep.
     
  8. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    To clarify: dobro and loše are adverbs here, not neuter adjectives. That is just the way how this class of adverbs is formed: they have the same form as neuter adjectives. Just as you can't attach English suffix -ly to any adjective, you cannot form an adverb from any BCS adjective.
     
  9. Vanja Senior Member

    Serbian
    Duya, kuliraj! :D

    Veliki Mag meant - Meni je dobro, not meni je dobar, that neuter adjetive. Meni je to lepo, Meni je lepo, Meni je drago... other examples. "Meni je Nešto nešto."
    That mistake made our Spanish pupil. :)

    Sinu mi je miran (šta?) san. = Mom sinu je miran san.

    Moj sin ima lepo lice.
    Mom sinu je lepo lice. Sinu (mi) je lepo lice.

    And what an explanation should clarify? That mi is unnecessary and/or confusing? It's not a red herring. I think mi is one very important spice of our language for expressing emotional connotation of a conversation. It gives taste, and can shift the meaning at times.

    Vidiš da mami nije dobro, pustimo je na miru.
    Vidiš da mi majci nije dobro! Otkači se bre!
    (= kao da kaže nije ni meni, nečem mom/meni mije dobro) Pusti nas na miru!
     
  10. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    The "Spanish pupil" thinks that dative possessive is a dangerous matter, even for native speakers!

    Let's go on with doubts: may we build copulative sentences in past and future with dative possessive? I mean, if we say "čorba mi je topla", may I say "juče u menzi čorba mi je bila topla" and "hajmo marš, čorba ti će biti topla!"?


    Hvala na Vašoj strpljivosti!
     
  11. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    The "Spanish pupil" thinks that dative possessive is a dangerous matter, even for native speakers!

    Let's go on with doubts.

    First one: may we build copulative sentences in past and future with dative possessive? I mean, if we say "čorba mi je topla", may I say "juče u menzi čorba mi je bila topla" and "hajmo, čorba ti će biti topla!"?

    Second one: maybe it's obvious for you but for me isn't so. This construction is valid only in copulative sentences, isn't it? I mean, I can say "brat mi je mehaničar (biti+name), brat mi je posnad (biti+adjective), brat mi je u Grčkoj, u braku, na tašte od jučer, iza ugla, itd. (biti+preposition), BUT I cannot say "brat mi igra fudbal svakog subota" (with the sense of "my brother plays soccer every Saturday - and not "brother plays to me soccer"-) or "brat mi kaže da padaće kiša" (my brother says that's going to rain - and not "brother says to me that..."-). Is it so?

    I promise to stop asking about possessive dative, hvala na Vašoj strpljivosti!
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  12. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    This is definitely a tricky one, even for natives.

    Brat mi igra fudbal svake subote means only "My brother plays football every Saturday", because the other meaning is impossible.

    But if you said: Brat mi čisti dvorište svake subote - then it can mean both "My brother cleans my yard every Saturday" and "My brother cleans (presumably his own) yard every Saturday".

    Now your question will probably be how do we know which is "the proper" meaning. The answer is we don't know. We can only assume that 'the first' meaning is the correct one, because for 'the second' case it should be moj brat instead of brat mi to avoid ambiguity. Or you can simply add a possessive pronoun before dvorište.

    The same goes for: Brat mi kaže da će padati kiša. My personal feeling is that in such sentences where exact meaning is not clear, mi has a tendency to mean meni rather than moj.
     
  13. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    I'll try to forge an answer, but it's indeed tricky.

    Generally, possessive dative is applicable in all tenses and for all sentence constituents, but there are limitations.

    Don't forget the rule "clitics second", which forces the possessive clitic (e.g. ti) to come into second place in the sentence (within the group of clitics). We then determine its meaning (of course, subconsciously) on the following rules:

    1) If the verb accepts an argument (recipient) in dative, that's it:
    Vanja ti je poslala kutiju. (she sent it to you; it doesn't mean the box or Vanja are yours, i.e. It isn't possessive).

    2) Otherwise, it modifies the direct object, if present:
    Vanja ti je našla kutiju. (=Vanja found your box)

    3) Otherwise, it modifies the subject:
    Vanja ti je otišla. (=Your [friend] Vanja has gone.)

    I'll address your examples in the next post...
     
  14. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    Yes, all are fine.

    Yes.

    Oh yes you can.

    That's my case 1) above, so it means the latter indeed.

    C'mon continue, it's just became interesting! :D
     
  15. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    OK, let's break promises!

    Following the example of "brat mi igra fudbal svake subote" , let's imagine this situation: I have an (ideal) wife that cooks her specialty to me every Thursday. How do I express that?

    . If I say "žena mi priprema paprikaš utorkom", it means that "my wife cooks paprikaš every Thursday", but maybe at home, maybe at her sister's, maybe in the restaurant where she works.

    · But I want to say that she's so kind that prepares FOR ME that dish. Must I say something like "meni žena mi priprema...", "žena mi priprema za mene..." or just "moja žena priprema za mene paprikaš svaki utorak"?


    Once again, thanks!
     
  16. Duya Senior Member

    Not in WR world
    Whatever
    In case 1, igrati does not take an indirect object in dative (at least not in the 'play' meaning): there's no such thing as *igrati mi, so "Brat mi igra" is interpreted as "My brother plays".

    In case 2, pripremati does take an indirect object in dative (to prepare/cook. for smb.) so "Žena mi priprema" is interpreted as "Wife cooks for/to me." Of course, that still means 'my wife', since it's not stressed otherwise: "Tvoja žena mi priprema". If you really must stress that it's your wife, you would thus say "Moja žena mi priprema."

    Anticipating the next question :): no, you cannot mix two dative clitics in the same sentence: *"Žena ti mi priprema ručak." But I suppose you can mix clitics and non-clitics: "Žena ti priprema Muji ručak", though it sounds a bit odd: one would rather say "Tvoja žena priprema Muji ručak."

    Possessive dative clitics are never mandatory, but they sound natural and informal; you may use possessive pronouns instead, at the risk of sounding stilted... Or like a foreigner. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  17. VelikiMag Senior Member

    Serbian - Montenegro
    Sesperxes, don't forget that in every situation there is a context based on which you can determine the meaning of something that otherwise seems unclear. Take a look at these examples:

    Ja obožavam paprikaš i žena mi ga priprema svakog utorka. This means that your wife prepares the stew especially for you, because you like it. It may as well be a pure coincidence that you like it and that she prepares it so often, but you will agree that this is less likely.

    Žena mi priprema paprikaš svakog utorka, a ja ga baš i ne volim. Although theoretically possible that she prepares it for you, it is most likely that she prepares it for herself. Or there is some other reason why she prepares it, say, your kids like it.

    As you can see, we can interpret things in many different ways. And if we analyze sentences isolated from their context, there can always be different opinions.
     
  18. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    Velika hvala Svima!
     

Share This Page