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bin-nisbe la- بالنسبة لـ

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by clevermizo, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    I have a question about the use of the structure بالنسبة لـ in colloquial Levantine dialects.

    I've been watching lots of interviews and other clips (on YouTube, for example), and as this is a common structure, one hears it often.

    My question is to how it combines with personal pronouns. Normally, when لـ combines with personal pronouns (in these dialects) we get the following output:

    ili, ilak, ilek, ilo, etc.

    However, whenever I hear people using it in the expression bin-nisbe la- (and it may just be my ears), I hear the following:

    bin-nisbe la-2ili
    bin-nisbe la-2ilek


    I was expecting bin-nisbe ili, or bin-nisbe ilek. The other structure seems redundant. Am I hearing it wrong, or is this redundancy the normal collocation?

    Thanks!
     
  2. zooz

    zooz Senior Member

    Languedoc-Roussillon
    Arabic & Syrian Arabic
    Hala clevermizo,

    No, the usage of the لام is not redundant. Actually I find myself using it some times and omitting it other times. Think there's no fixed rule and it's rather accepted by hearing.
     
  3. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    Shukran ya Zooz -

    The la- still looks redundant to me when you say la-2ili, because ili already means la-nafsi. However, if this is just the way people talk, then that's fine. I just wanted to know if I was mishearing the phrase. It's interesting to note that you can freely switch between using it or not.

    Thanks again!
     
  4. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Redundant though it may be, la-2ili is a common alternative to ili.

    Personally, I tend to use ili.

    la-2ili can sometimes be used for extra emphasis, but that need not be the case.

    None of this has anything to do with bin-nisbe.

    (Obviously, all of the above applies to the other il- forms as well.)
     
  5. MarcB Senior Member

    US English
    I think this is the same as Qatari and other Gulf dialects binisbali meaning according to,regarding. Is this correct?
     
  6. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    "Regarding," yes; "according to," no - at least not in Palestinian Arabic.
     
  7. zooz

    zooz Senior Member

    Languedoc-Roussillon
    Arabic & Syrian Arabic
    You're welcome, clevermizo. What I reckon is إلي means me in this example and hence the usage of the لام. Mind you that it has some other meanings. e.g. mine.


    I agree with Elroy.
     
  8. huhmzah

    huhmzah Senior Member

    Ithaca, NY
    Urdu - English
    I learned this expression initially from Fus7a so I'm a bit confused as to its usage in dialect. [my to be Adviser for grad-school is Palestinian, so even though I'll be working on the tunisian dialect for my research, I'm really interested in picking up some Levantine/Palestinian as well -- and it's exciting to see that there are people here to teach it ;) ]

    So... if "Bin-nisba l-" means "regarding" in Palestinian arabic, how would I use it in a sentence? If I said [I'm not sure how it'd be said in Palestinian, but I'm guessing something like:
    الخبر بالنسبة ألي مش صحيح --> ilkhebr bin-nisbe ili mish s7ii7.
    Does that mean: "The news regarding me isn't correct?"
    Now if I said the same thing in Standard:
    الخبر بالنسبة لي غير صحيح --> "el-khabru, bin-nisba li, gheiru sa7ii7in"
    In fus7a (and I could be wrong) I feel like it means "The news, in my opinion, is incorrect".

    Am I confusing the expressions or is the difference between Standard and Dialect that big here?
     
  9. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    "Regarding" is not the only translation in colloquial or in fus7a. A more universal translation might be "as far as I'm (or whoever) is concerned...." I think in some cases "in my opinion" works as well.
     
  10. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    Arabic and English
    I don't think "in my opinion" is accurate, it's more like "from my side" or "to me".
     
  11. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    I'm skeptical about that explanation, because in Palestinian Arabic we do not ever use إلي to mean "me" (for example, we would not say شافني إلي as you would in Syria; we would say شافني أنا) but we do use بالنسبة لإلي. In my opinion, لإلي probably originated as an emphatic form and has developed into a synonym of إلى in most contexts.
    Unfortunately your sentence does not make sense. "The news regarding/about me" would be الخبر عني (il-khabar 3anni).
    It doesn't work in fus7a either. "In my opinion" would be برأيي (bira2yi).
    I think your understanding of the meaning/usage of the expression isn't quite right. The usage does not differ much between standard and colloquial Arabic, except that some people would consider its usage with the colloquial meaning incorrect (see this thread).
    You are right about the multiplicity of translations, but I don't think it can ever mean "in X's opinion."

    Some of the possible translations are "regarding," "as regards," "with regard to," "concerning," "about," "as for," and "as far as X is concerned."
     
  12. huhmzah

    huhmzah Senior Member

    Ithaca, NY
    Urdu - English
    Alright -- so that's the type of construct I think when you guys say "bin-nisbe la" is used to mean "regarding" -- as in "the news regarding me" -- "this is regarding him" etc etc. So how about some examples where the English sense "regarding" comes through w/ this expression.
     
  13. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    I do not have any information regarding the accident.

    ليست لدي أية معلومات بالنسبة للحادث (standard)
    فش عندي أي معلومات بالنسبة للحادس (colloquial)

    Regarding your application, please give me a call tomorrow morning.

    بالنسبة لطلبك، الرجاء الاتصال بي صباح الغد (standard)
    بالنسبة لطلبك اتصل في بكرة الصبح لو سمحت (colloquial)
     
  14. huhmzah

    huhmzah Senior Member

    Ithaca, NY
    Urdu - English
    Ahh ok:
    Semantically -- what is the difference between saying:
    ليست لدي أية معلومات بالنسبة للحادث and ليست لدي أية معلومات عن الحادث?
     
  15. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    No difference. :)
     

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