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bis zum Mittag / bis morgen (zu)

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Red & White, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. Red & White Junior Member

    English-England
    Hi can somone please explain why zu is used below (from my text book)

    Wir werden bis zum Mittag müde sein

    and not used in

    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis morgen haben

    Thanks
    Gavin
     
  2. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    Deutschland (Hamburg)
    German/Germany
    I believe "zu" is used if a noun follows. There are many phrases like that.

    bis zum Mittag
    bis zum Morgengrauen
    bis zum heutigen Tage
    bis zum Schluss
    bis zum bitteren Ende
    bis zum letzten Mann

     
  3. ABBA Stanza Senior Member

    Hessen, DE
    English (UK)
    I believe the "zum" is optional here:

    Wir werden bis [zum] Mittag müde sein.

    Likewise, one could say

    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis zum Morgen haben.

    However, I would interpret "bis zum Morgen" in this case to mean "by/until the morning", in contrast to "bis morgen", which of course means "by/until tomorrow".

    Cheers
    Abba
     
  4. Red & White Junior Member

    English-England
    Many Thanks!
     
  5. djweaverbeaver Senior Member

    English Atlanta, GA USA
    Hi,

    I was just going to add/reiterate that the noun der Morgen mostly refers to the morning, and the adverb morgen always refers to tomorrow.
     
  6. Grim-fandango Junior Member

    Arabic
    An excellent question. Bis must be followed by "zu" if the noun following it has a determiner e.g.: article, possessive pronoun ..etc..

    ex.: "Präsident Assad will bis zu seinem Tod in Syrien bleiben"

    but with days, months or dates it's optional.. here you have it...

    Those little and total non-sense phrases or rules and others are the reason why I consider the German language to be a tedious and poorly articulate language.

    I'm not the only one saying that, I have natives telling me that and even one German comedian was joking about German as well.

    I mean in the example mentioned above, even natives have no clue why another preposition "zu" follows "bis" in some situations even though

    it has no meaning or implication at all!! We have a proverb in Arabic that say:

    "an articulate speech is the one that is short and yet meaningful". No offense to the Germans and I still like German

    but I wanted to LOVE it but I guess no way unless duden or whoever start reforming the language again...

    Just needed to get this off my chest...


    Bis bald! :D
     
  7. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Mittag is a noun, morgen an adverb. Adverbs don't have articles, hence bis *zum morgen is ungrammatical (zum=zu+dem). Morgen can also be a noun (in which case you say indeed bis zum Morgen) but then it means morning and tomorrw.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  8. Grim-fandango Junior Member

    Arabic
    thanks berndf, I forgot to address this point.

    As I said before, bis must be followed by "zu" if the noun following it has a determiner and since "morgen" which is an adverb and adverbs use no determiners

    then no need for "zu". So just apply the rule above and you are good to go.
     
  9. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    Hi, I want to add some more versions.

    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis morgen haben. = I understand it as idiom for: Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis morgen erhalten. and not literally.

    If I plug in other times, I get, for example:

    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis 8 Uhr haben.
    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis um 8 Uhr haben.
    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis zum Mittag haben. (Mittag=noun, requires "zum")
    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis heute Mittag haben. (Uppercase spelling due to spelling reform, http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Mittag_Pause_Uhrzeit_Sueden )
    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis morgen Mittag haben. (As Abba_Stanza showed: until tomorrow at noon)
    Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten bis zum Morgen haben. (As Abba_Stanza showed: until the morning)
     
  10. Grim-fandango Junior Member

    Arabic
    @Red & White:Another alternative for "bis" in your second sentence:

    "Wir werden unsere Fahrkarten erst morgen erhalten."
     

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