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Bitch, non-offensive way

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by 涼宮, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    Greetings! :)

    In English the word bitch isn't always offensive. It can be used between friends or even a couple to refer to the other in a non-offensive way. For example, the girlfriend is asking the boyfriend his opinion about a dress, and he says ''you don't look that well, you look quite ridiculous'', then she can simply reply ''you bitch'' but she isn't even angry or wants to offend. Is there in Polish an equivalent for ''bitch'' in a non-offensive way in such contexts? I don't think neither kurwa nor dziwka would fit the context. What do you suggest? I've heard from a girl she uses chuj with her girl-friends, but I don't know if that would be a widespread term for such contexts.

    Thank you in advance!
     
  2. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I've only heard it used that way by ebonics speakers, so I wouldn't recommend that anyone imitates this. :D

    Anyway, in Polish you can achieve a similar offensive-affectionate-humorous effect by saying 'O ty [insert what you want]'!' with a right tone of voice.
     
  3. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Young women in Poland may use the offensive word "idiot" in an affectionate way ("Ty idiotko/kretynko!). Just seek for the sketch "rozmowa telefoniczna, Maciej Stuhr". But the obscene words you quote are very offensive if used about a person you speak to. However, many young people today, also female, use obscenities like a comma in sentences, without any feeling about it, but it's not the same as calling somebody one of them.
     
  4. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    There are other emphatic expressions:

    Ach ty .................. !

    Ech ty .................. !

    Oż ty ................... !

    Ożeż ty ................. !

    You could insert in the gap:
    niedobra/niedobry
    obrzydliwa/obrzydliwy
    wstrętna/wstrętny
    ochydna/ochydny
    nikczemna/nikczemny
    francowata/francowaty (this one is quite strong)
    żmijo/łajdaku/łotrze

    with a playful tone of voice.

    You could simply say:
    Żmija!/ Łajdak!/ Łotr!

    I would never use any of the Polish vulgar words you mentioned. They are very offensive.

    (Some may disagree with me.)
     
  5. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I've come across 'dziwka' and 'kurwa' used in the vocative ('dziwko' and 'kurwo' respectively) used to call each other by young men. Please bear in mind that this is a very restricted usage -- they used these only towards one another and within their social circle and they knew each other well.
     
  6. dn88 Senior Member

    pl
    These four seem fine to me even without adding any other word. I might also simply say "O ty!".

    Yours pedantically,
    dn88

    :D ;)
     
  7. Ania R. Senior Member

    Poznań, Poland
    Polish (Poland)
    In the contexts that you mentioned I would definitely not use "dziwka", "kurwa" or "chuj". These are extemely offensive terms and generally not used in regular conversations, and certainly lack the degree of playfulless that is implied in your examples. In the context you described I personally would go with the good ol' "ty świnio" or "ty krowo" or simply "świnia", "krowa". Obviously in certain contexts they can also be offensive, but those you would actually hear among friends when they tease each other or pretend to be offended by something someone said about them. I personally would not wanna be friends with someone who calls me "dziwka" or "kurwa" even in a playful manner. It's just not elegant, for lack of a better word. Of course with the way the teenagers speak to each other, you might possibly hear it somewhere, but it would certainly not be widely acceptable. "Dziwka", "kurwa" or "chuj" are much much stronger than "bitch".

    PS. This is my first post on the forum and what an interesting topic! :)
     
  8. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Thank you. I didn't check that word in the dictionary. I saw 'ochydny' on the Internet and just copied it. I corrected 'obżydliwy'.
     
  9. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    Thank you very much, everybody! You're always most helpful :).

    Welcome to the forum! You'll love it :D.
     
  10. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    To my dismay, I have heard my peers use the word 'dziwka' as a term of endearment a number of times. I too think it's a bit over the top. On the internet, you may sometimes come across the somewhat softened spelling 'dzifka'. 'Ty dzifffkooo! Nie podoba ci sie mój nowy outfit?'. (an original stylized utterance).
     
  11. Klaudyna Junior Member

    London
    Polish (Poznań, Poland)
    I think the only word which would fit here is ''franca'' (Ty franco!). It's slightly offensive but, depending on the region, can also be used in a jokingly manner. I'm guessing it derives from a slang word we have for syphilis, which is a STD considered common in ''loose women'' .
     
  12. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Mind, though, that many people, myself including (Do I need to feel mortified?) wouldn't be familiar with the word 'franca'.
     
  13. Ania R. Senior Member

    Poznań, Poland
    Polish (Poland)
    You don't need to feel mortified :D I mean I personally know this word, but in college I met people from all around the country and this word came up a couple of times and not everybody knew what it meant.
     
  14. Klaudyna Junior Member

    London
    Polish (Poznań, Poland)
    Oh, I wasn't aware of that. But you have a point there, the word is a bit outdated and might raise some eyebrows among the younger crowd. It could be a regional thing though, where I'm originally from (Poznan, Greater Poland) the word is still in use.
     
  15. Ania R. Senior Member

    Poznań, Poland
    Polish (Poland)
    Yeah, I think all the "local" people knew the word (or at least had heard it before), but some people from other parts of Poland had a problem understanding it. But that's of course the case with many many other words as well.
     
  16. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I've been familiar with the word 'franca' for a long time (I'm not sure I've ever used it). What I've just learnt thanks to Klaudyna is that it's got other meanings. :) I consider it a bit old-fashioned; a word that the elderly might use. I don't find it offensive though, but colloquial.
     
  17. dn88 Senior Member

    pl
    I've only heard 'franca' in reference to a mean, nasty woman. :)

    It strikes me as a bit old-fashioned, too, but "Ty franco!" would definitely be less offensive than "Ty dziwko!".
     
  18. marco_2 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    In Lvov in pre-war times this word had this more general meaning, quoted by Thomas (e.g. żadna franca nam nie podskoczy). There was also an adjective francowaty.
     
  19. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    This morning I came across 'You bitch.' translated into Polish as 'Ty suko.' in a series House aired by TVN7. The episode '5 to 9' comes from the series#6 and is about Cuddy's hard day. She's negotiating financing for her hospital. She wants 12% of the amount in question from the people who give money, whereas they offer 8%. She insists. In the end she gets 12% and when this is announced 'You bitch.' is used. The phrase was said by a representative of, I think, an insurance company to Cuddy, the administrator of the hospital.
    Stan: You bitch.
    [Cuddy turns around]
    Stan: I didn't think you'd actually do it.
    Dr. Lisa Cuddy: I told you I would.
    Stan: Call the dogs off.
    [Hands her a new contract]

    Source


    While the English phrase might be OK, I have some serious doubts about the Polish equivalent. What do others think?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  20. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Depends on the tone of voice and quite a few other factors, but I can conceive of it being translated as 'Ty suko!'.
     
  21. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Maybe just "Suka" would be better. Anyway, it is a vulgar word used to describe someone's tough or cold attitude and so is 'bitch'.
    Słownik Internetowy defines suka as:
    3. wulg. kobieta, zwłaszcza źle prowadząca się lub zimna.
     
  22. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Thanks.
    Yes, that's true.
    There wasn't any quarrel in this particular scene. Anyway, I think you would need to see it to get the feel of it. If you've got access to it, it's approximately at 40' (the last scene if I remember aright) of the episode 14, season 6.
    Or maybe I've got too sensitive to this kind of language.
     
  23. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    This may very well be a question of age. I can see how some older people (+30) could object to it, while the younger generation probably wouldn't bat an eyelid. I'll check it in a spare moment, which I don't have all that many these days, seems interesting.
     
  24. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    No worries -- it's nothing urgent.

    Another possible equivalent occured to me: Ty jędzo!/Ale jędza!
     
  25. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Non offensive?
     
  26. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Offensive. :p

    Both 'suka' and 'jędza' are offensive.

    The point is, however, that I think 'suka' is a different, higher, level of 'offensiveness': it verges on being vulgar, whereas this would not be the case with 'jędza' which is merely offensive.

    I'd guess the same might apply to the English 'bitch':
    2 [countable] (slang, disapproving) an offensive way of referring to a woman, especially an unpleasant one
    You stupid little bitch!
    She can be a real bitch.

    http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/bitch

    2. Offensive a. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
    b. A lewd woman.
    c. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bitch



    I think there is a difference between 'offensive' and 'vulgar'. You can be offensive without being vulgar.
     
  27. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    It must be noted that certain words which can hardly be regarded as being anything else that offensive words, might indeed be used in a non-offensive way, even as something of a term of endearment. This is the case with 'jędza' and multiple other items of vocabulary, but I don't think it spans as far as 'dziwka'.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  28. xdreezy New Member

    polski
    Maybe 'ty suczko' ? :D it's more kindly word than 'suka' (bitch), but I think it can be use only for women.
     
  29. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    The question is not if a word can be used, but if it actually is used. Have you ever heard somebody using 'ty suczko' as a term of endearment?
     
  30. xdreezy New Member

    polski
    I suppose, it is not so popular term, but yes, it is used in Poland and i've heard it so many times among young women, especially teenagers as an quite kind expression ;)
     
  31. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Mayby the bext step will be young men addressing each other amiably "skurwielu". In Australia allegedly the word "bastard" is quite friendly.
     
  32. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    'You lucky bastard.' isn't necessarily offensive. I'd suppose it may even be jocular:
    2. Informal, often humorous or affectionate a person, esp a man lucky bastard
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bastard
     
  33. xdreezy New Member

    polski
    well, if you like that word, go ahead! use it! :) but i propose "skurwielku", sounds so much lovingly ;)
     
  34. głupi Junior Member

    English - UK
    "Lucky bastard" is usually just a coarser way of saying something like "jammy so-and-so".

    In Australia I think they have already taken it a step further because young males there address each other amiably as "cunts".
     
  35. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    You'd be surprised to find out what words are used as a term of endearment, what a handy term by the way, these days. People seem to have lost all inihibitons. Language evolution at its finest.. or worst, should I say. I wouldn't bat an eyelid on hearing my peers call one another 'cunts' or 'fuckers', for that matter. I may do so myself every now and then, to be quite frank. :D
     
  36. Agiii

    Agiii Senior Member

    Polish
    My guess is the Polish person you mention certainly did not use chuj the way you use bitch in English, but more to stress something, like hell or fuck (like in "Who the fuck do you think you are?!") in English.

    And with bitch - I don't think it can have a positive, not offensive meaning in English. What you interpret as its inoffensive meaning, it's about using words in nonliteral, figurative sense and you can do that with every pejorative word, both in English, Polish or Spanish. Of course only if the whole context - the relationship you have with the person you're talking to and your performative skills (voice, intonation, your management of your body - it's one think if you say You, silly thing, what have you done? giving the impression of being angry or nervous than if you seem happy, friendly and light-hearted) - allows it. You can say: You, idiot what have you done? with a huge smile on your face and in a way that secures you won't be misunderstood by a friend. You can do that with imbecil or tonto or idiota, wariatka, etc. too. But as I say it's about using the words figuratively, not that this new usage makes a part of their literal meaning.

    Also mind you, who's talking plays a huge role. It's like with nigger in English. The term is awfully racist when used by white people. Some black people use it and they can because they refer to themselves. I don't accept bitch - suka or idiotka in Polish when used by men - it sounds awfully sexist to me. If it's used by women among them, I still don't like it but it doesn't sound so bad.

    It's easier not to try to use the expressions in this way in foreign languages I guess, otherwise you risk being misunderstood.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  37. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    This should serve as an example under dictionary definitions of the phrase 'double standards'. ;)
     
  38. Agiii

    Agiii Senior Member

    Polish
    I don't know if it was a joke or not, but risking my explanation comes across as not needed, I will still clarify:

    Not really. The language are not words, but the whole social context. This doesn't only refer to race and gender.

    It's one thing if you say: "Damn, I'm so stupid, how could I forget your birthday!", and generally quite a different thing if you say: "Damn, you're so stupid, how could you forget his birthday!". This refers to every possible utterance.

    And it's one thing when some Poles start a facebook group "Polaki Biedaki Cebulaki". But if a German or American or Russian person started the same group it would have a very different, racist meaning.

    Expressions that are accepted as self-description, aren't accepted as friendly when referred to somebody else.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  39. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    My previous remark was half-joking, half-serious. ;) Technically speaking, these are examples of double standards, regardless of whether their application is justified or not.

    Of course, I agree with you, there's no denying the importance of "the whole social context", and I entirely agree with the last two examples you gave.

    I just find myself disagreeing with one particular point -- that a man calling a woman 'idiotka' is being sexist. If it is a factually correct statement (but only then!), how is it sexist? Would you prefer us, men, to refer to such a woman using a gender-neutral wording "Ta idiota" (which by the way has been discussed extensively on this forum)? :D
     
  40. Agiii

    Agiii Senior Member

    Polish
    Pisałam przecież o tym w kontekście wypowiedzi nieobraźliwych. Jak chce się kogoś obrazić używa się zarówno idiotka jak i chuj, kretyn/ka i podobnych. I chociaż nie jest to ładne, nie sądziłabym, że jest seksistowskie. Natomiast od jakiegoś czasu furorę w internecie robią te memy: "coś tam, coś tam, bitch!". Widziałam już polskie wersje i używały one raczej słowa idiotka niż suka. Jest to dla mnie potwornie seksistowskie. Co innego jeśli dwie kobiety nazwą się żartobliwie idiotkami w rozmowie.
     
  41. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Cóż, ilu ludzi, tyle opinii. Ja w tym nic seksistowskiego nie widzę, jeśli ktoś tego rzeczywiście nie nadużywa, dając przy tym wyraz swojej mizoginii.

    A to, że miałaś na myśli wypowiedzi nieobraźliwe, jakoś mi umknęło.
     
  42. Agiii

    Agiii Senior Member

    Polish
    Cały wątek dotyczy wypowiedzi nieobraźliwych.

    I ciekawe, czy gdybyś zobaczył obrazek ze zdjęciem ładnej, pewnej siebie kobiety i podpis w stylu: "Bo trzeba myśleć, chuju!" albo "Grunt to pewność siebie, chamie" i gdybyś podobnych obrazków widział sporo również sądziłbyś, że message nie jest w żaden sposób obraźliwy dla mężczyzn. Zwróć uwagę, że te bitch memy nie mają męskiego odpowiednika - to zawsze mówi facet i zawsze pojawia się bitch.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  43. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Co racja, to racja. W ferworze dyskusji jakoś o tym zapomniałem, mój błąd. :)

    Nie widziałem tych memów, ale zapewne masz rację.
     
  44. Vanya Josefstadt New Member

    English - USA
    Actually it would be fairly odd in English for a girlfriend to refer to her boyfriend as a "bitch", unless she want to imply he is acting effeminately. When women or men address men as "bitches" it usally implies homosexuality, at least in the US. I agree that a woman can use "bitch" to another woman without it necessarily being offensive. Also the word "to bitch" meaning "complain" is not considered offensive in most contexts in the US.
     

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