Bulgarian: Dilmano, Dilbero

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by syron, Jul 17, 2006.

  1. syron New Member

    Italy
    Hallo everybody!
    Is there someone who can translate for me these Bulgarian words in English?

    "Dilmano dilbero
    kazhi mi kak se sadi pipero.
    Da tsafti da varzhe da beresh ka sakash
    Pomunigo, pobutsnigo, pomunigo, pobutsnigo
    Teta kak se sadi pipero"

    Thank you in advance!!

    :)
     
  2. Brian P

    Brian P Senior Member

    Ciao Syron!

    Some years ago I visited Bulgaria and in preparation bought myself an English-Bulgarian dictionary and a Bulgarian grammar book. My knowledge of the language is very minimal but, since there seem to be no Bulgarian speakers on this forum to help you, I attempted to translate this myself.

    Most of the words appear to be nonsense. The only ones that I could find in my dictionary were:

    kazhi mi kak sadi pipero tell me how pepper plants
    tsafti sprats (spratti in italiano)
    beresh you gather

    Mi spiace, caro amico, ma questo è tutto l'aiuto che ti posso dare.
     
  3. jazyk Senior Member

    Brno, Česká republika
    Brazílie, portugalština
    Se ti riferisci al pesce, www garzantilinguistica it dice che il nome deriva dall'inglese sprat. :D
     
  4. Julz Senior Member

    home.pipeline.com/~asm/slavs/f_arch_trans_detail.htm
     
  5. Brian P

    Brian P Senior Member

    Ho trovato una traduzione tedesca:

    Dilmana, du hübsche, erzähl mir, wie man Pfeffer sät.
    Ref.: Damit er blüht, damit er Frucht ansetzt, damit du ihn pflückst wie du ihn magst.
    Steck ihn hinein, drücke ihn fest. So säen sie Pfeffer.​
     
  6. syron New Member

    Italy
    Oh, but you've been so kind!!!

    Anzi, posso parlare in italiano visto che lo conoscete così bene :cool:
    Ringrazio tutti voi; quello che vi ho scritto è il testo di una canzone tradizionale bulgara... la traduzione in tedesco va benissimo visto che la persona a cui serve lo parla molto bene. :thumbsup:
    Grazie ancora a tutti, Annalisa :D
     
  7. tantan Junior Member

    Bulgaria
    Hi,
    It may be too late to help with this, but since I just registered for this forum, I'd like to contribute to all the inquiries in Bulgarian:) so that i can give good answers, like the ones i've found here durig my struggles with French. So, here it goes:
    "Dilmano dilbero - this is a girl's name and/or a play with the name
    kazhi mi kak se sadi pipero. - tell me how the pepers are planted
    Da tsafti da varzhe da beresh ka sakash - so that they blossom and give fruit, fruit that you can pick whenever you want
    Pomuni go, pobutsni go, pomuni go, pobutsni go - put it in the soil and push a little, put it in the soil and push a little (this is a bit rough translation)
    Teta kak se sadi pipero - that is how the peeper is planted"

    hope this is of use
    happy to help with all things Bulgarian:)
     
  8. syron New Member

    Italy
    Many Thanks Tartan!

    Bye Bye, Syron :D
     
  9. българин Senior Member

    bulgarian

    тантане, поздрави за превода. кефи ме. много яко как го преведе "помуни го, побуцни го" :p
     
  10. tantan Junior Member

    Bulgaria
    бъл-га-ри ю-на-ци
    :)
     
  11. Pippilota New Member

    Bulgarian
    "дилберо" comes from 'дилбер' adjective from Persian - Turkish means 'beautiful' i.e. Beautiful girl Dilmana in the vocative. My own interpretation after spotting the word 'dilber' in a dictionary of rare & obsolte words in Bulgarian lg. Hope it works out OK.
     
  12. Vanja Senior Member

    Serbian
    Dilber exists in Serbo-Croatian too, it's a Turkish loanwowrd (archaic now), but it refers to a man, handsome, good-looking man, or to a dear, loving person (may be for a girl too).

    And I don't know if you have noticed, but this song has hidden (very cunning ;)) sexual connotation, symbolically retold in seed paper planting. This is again something very typical for old folk songs.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  13. Pippilota New Member

    Bulgarian
    thanks, Vanja (Pippilota)
     
  14. Ivanovich47 New Member

    Europe
    Bulgarian
    For the nowadays Bulgarians it sounds just like a female name.
     
  15. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    PETAR SKOK: "ETIMOLOGIJSKI RJEČNIK HRVATSKOGA ILI SRPSKOGA JEZIKA" ("DICTIONNAIRE ETYMOLOGIQUE DE LA LANGUE CROATE OU SERBE", TOM. 1), "A-J", JUGOSLAVENSKA AKADEMIJA ZNANOSTI I UMJETNOSTI, Zagreb 1971, says (p. 404, sub "dilber"):

    "dilber (Vuk) = dilber, gen. -era (Kosmet), indeklinabilni pridjev pred ličnim imenom (npr. s dilber-Ilijom, Vuk l, 477), kao imenica m i f »sinonim: 1° dragan, 2° lijep, mio«. Odatle: deminutivi na -Sic dilberčić, na -če dilberce n prema dilberka f = dilberika = dilberka f (Kosmet) »ljepotica«, u Prilužu (Kosmet) s tur. deminutivnim sufiksom dilberdžika f = sa -nica dìlbernica f. U narodnoj pjesmi odatle pridjev: Ej Nedjeljo, mori dilbero\ Balkanski turcizam perzijskog podrijetla (perz. složenka od dil »srce« i od prezentske osnove bar od glagola hurdan »nositi« > tur. dilber »lijep«) iz oblasti sentimentalnog života (tip sevdah} : bug. dilber, arb. dülbér. Kurelac ima još složenicu za ime konja dildąs, od perz. dil i tur. das »drug«, a Elezović
    iz Kosmeta dildăde, gen. -eta n »ženska vezoglava«, od prez. đil i dade qd dašten »dati« (perzijski glagol je u prasrodstvu s našim dati}. U Vukovim pjesmama ima još tur. složenica s našim sufiksom -ica: dilkušica = delkušica kao epitet za ptica = denkušica (s disimilacijom dentala d-l > d-n, isto tako epitet). Drugi je dio tur. kuş »ptica«, tur. dilkuş »ptica od srca, duše, koja razveseljuje«. Promjena i > e nije jasna. Ovamo idea dìlum m (Trebinje, Hercegovina) »kruška«, upravo »moje srce«, obrazovano kao džanum »dušo«.
    "

    It also cites sources: "Lit.: ARj 2, 396. 397. Mladenov 127. GM 460. Lokotsch 519. Miklošič 46. SEW l, 200." (Note: "ARJ" is Rječnik hrvatskoga ili srpskoga jezika. Ed. JAZU. Zagreb, 1880. ss.; "Mladenov" is S. Mladenov, Etimologičeski i pravopisenb rečnikb na bblgarskija knižovenbezik-ь. Sofija, 1941. (correction of the misspelled citation in Skok 1971: Stefan Mladenov, Etimologičeski i pravopisen rečnik na bălgarskija knižoven ezik. Sofija, 1941 = Стефан Младенов, Етимологически и правописен речник на българския книжовен език. София, 1941); "GM" is G. Meyer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der albanesischen Sprache. Strassbourg, 1891; "Lokotsch" is K. Lokotsch, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der europäischen Wörter orientalischen Ursprungs. Heidelberg, 1927; "SEW" is E. Berneker, Slavisches etymologisches Wörterbuch. I Α-Mor. Heidelberg, 1908-1913. I'm not sure about what "Miklošič" refers to: maybe it means F. Miklosich, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der slavischen Sprachen. Beč, 1886, maybe some other publication of him.)

    The problem: I can't read BCS, so you have to draw your conclusions yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  16. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    To add one note:

    Lokotsch (Etymologisches Wörterbuch der europäischen Wörter orientalischen Ursprungs), publication cited in previous post, explains (p. 41, paragraph 519):

    "Pers. dilbär: 'Schön, angenehm, reizend' [aus pers. dil 'Herz' Horn NpEt S. 127. Nr. 571 u. bär Präsensstamm des Vbs. burdän 'tragen', ebenda S. 45, Nr. 196]", tk. ebenso dilber; hieraus bulg. serb. dilber 'schön'. [Bern SlEtWb 200"

    Note: "Horn NpEt" = Paul Horn, Grundriß der neupersischen Etymologie (Sammlung indogermanischer Wörterbücher IV). Straßburg 1893. (Nach Seiten und Nummern zitiert); "Bern SlEtWb" = Erich Berneker, Slavisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch. I. Bd. A-L. 2. unveränderte Aufl. Heidelberg 1924.

    As far as I understand this means, the Bulgarian Serbian expression dilber ("beautiful") comes from a connection of Persian dil ("heart") and the verb burdän ("to carry"). So it is not correct to call it Turkish. "dil" seems to be of Indoeuropean origin, not of Ural–Altaic. You can hear it often in Hindi songs ("dil" = heart) or in ethnical Kurdish and Zaza songs - also in Turkey of course - f.e. as name "Dilber". But it is quite less used in Turkish language. They often use yürek in poems or kalp in anatomy. Ottomans may have brought this word to Bulgarian Serbian, but not as their very own heritage, but as a modern present from the old sophisticated Persia.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  17. DarkChild Senior Member

    Bulgarian
    Дилберо is vocative case for дилбер which as someone pointed out means "beautiful". It's often encountered in folklore songs. Another very famous one is Женала е дюлбер Яна/ Zhenala e dyulber (another form of the same word) Yana. The word is completely obsolete today.

    As for Dilmano, Dilbero - the girl's name is Dilmana and the song asks her to reveal how to plant peppers :D This is a song from Shopski folklore area (around Sofia), while the other one is from Thrace. Those are two very different regions folklore- and music-wise.
     
  18. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    Again a note according to Dilbero. May there have been times, when todays western Bulgaria and southern Serbia was connected even more than western and eastern Bulgaria or southern and northern Serbia were connected then?

    Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic (Narodne srpske pjesme, Vol. 1, Breitkopf & Härtl, 1824) explains - according to national Serbian folk song Славују, да не пјева рано, Nr. 300 (p. 205f, see in Google books f.e.), that there is a song line existing "Еј Недељо, мори, дилберо!" ("Ej Nedeljo, mori, dilbero!") and comments this additional line with an asterisc footnote as follows (I hope I did not misspell it): "Овако се припијева уза сваку врему. По свој придици ово ће бити Бугарска пјесма, па посрбљена."

    As far as I understand this means that Славују, да не пјева рано is a Bulgarian song, but Serbianised.

    Nearly the same song text Славуј пиле, without the line "Еј Недељо, мори, дилберо!" is known from the beautiful and successfull film Zona Zamfirova, directed by Zdravko Šotra, after Stevan Sremac's 1906 novel, playing in the old city of Niš, "hardly (...) a dozen years since the Turks were driven out" (as said in the film) at the end of 19th century (maybe 1889, 500 years after the Battle of Kosovo). The film is spoken or sung in the local Torlakian language, a dialect extisting not only in eastern Serbia, but also in Bulgaria and northern Macedonia, as part of the South Slavic continuum. The song is sung by the actress Sloboda Mićalović (Ćetković) (even though in the end credits main actress Katarina Radivojević is said to have sung it).

    So this seems to be the or one way, the term Dilbero took to come to Serbia:

    It is an Balkan "turcism" of Persian origin (from dil = "heart" and hurdan or burdan= "to carry") with the meaning for the resulting adjective dilber as "beautiful". Maybe with help of Bulgarian language it may have reached Serbian folk songs and language in form of the Slavic vocativ case as Dilbero. Who knows, maybe some old Torlakian speakers and country folks still know and use Dilbero to call their dear Dilmana "du Hübsche"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  19. DarkChild Senior Member

    Bulgarian
    The topic you're raising is somewhat controversial. History and language is still an inflammatory subject in this neighborhood and political borders don't necessarily reflect language borders. However, it is a known fact that there is a thing called a dialect continuum so areas that are adjacent to each other have very similar speech and vocabulary. Western Bulgaria with Southern Serbia and what is today FYROM share very common dialects so it's natural that they also have similar songs. I've often confused Southern Serbian folklore songs for Bulgarian because of the language. Bulgarian linguists treat them as transitional dialects (drawing anger in Serbia :p).

    So, in many respects Western Bulgarian is more similar to those dialects than to Eastern ones, and same with Southern Serbian with respect to the Standard language (I think Western dialects are the basis for it).
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  20. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    I just wonder, whether it is true, that the use of dilber lapsed completely. Or whether this is an effect of the fact, that Serbia chose a northern dialect to form its standard language, whereas Bulgaria chose an eastern dialect to use it as standard dialect.
    I'd like to speak with old people in the West and North of Rodopi (no matter which national state: BG, MK, SR, "Kosovo") to see myself, whether those old "Turkish" words still exist in the memory of local population or if they really don't exist any more, as many people as well as modern dictionaries say.

    I just wonder if the songs are dead and forgotten. And the world described in it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  21. DarkChild Senior Member

    Bulgarian
    I can't speak of other countries, but in Bulgaria those songs have been well preserved. People in the villages sing them all the time - old and young. Also, there is a strong tradition of village fairs where folklore songs and dance are a very important part. But in everyday language, those words are not used much. Mostly by older people. Дилбер, for example, is a very rare and obsolete word. I didn't know what is means until recently.
     
  22. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    Yes, when I first read this thread subject and the lyrics of the song, I felt remembered to the song Чуй ме, Дилмано of "modern" group Tonika, where "he" sings he will leave the village via train next morning to run a night bar in the city and get rich, instead of planting the pepper with "her" at home. Even though without sexual connotation it shows, the tradition still lives in modern styles and Dilmana (in vocative case as it has to be) and her pepper let people still dance and smile. Well done, Bulgaria. Maybe, if I had the patience to watch more фолклор тв, I even would encounter some traces of дилбер, too. I like the word a lot.

    One such example, I love, is "Войната тригодишната" or "Кога војници тргнавме", for example sung by Macedonian singer Никола Бадев (other interpreters: Пепи Бафтировски; Пелагониски бисери; Зоран Џорлев & Блажо Богев; Зоран Џорлев, Дарко Билбиловски). There "he" adresses "her" (not Dilmana this time) this way:

    Марике, дилбер, Марике, тебе ми те жална оставам.
    Тебе ми те жална оставам, жална од осум месеци.

    I don't know a translation for the lyrics of this song and which three-year war it refers to, but it sounds sad, serious and very beautiful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  23. DarkChild Senior Member

    Bulgarian
    ^^
    I don't think planting pepper has a sexual connotation:eek:
     
  24. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    Tova zavisi
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  25. jadeite_85 Senior Member

    Italy
    italian, slovene
    I've found the word dilber in some modern Bosnian songs.

    Lepa Brena - Čačak

    "Kaže meni dilber moj
    da ja nisam njegov broj
    hoće rock, a ja jok
    volim samo Čačak"
     
  26. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    moj: So "she" adresses "him" as dilber? I know it has already been mentioned here by one special member. So this is an example for usage of "dilber" for a man?

    Lepa Brena - first album 1982, more than 30 years in business, I wouldn't have thought that. Cover pose looks like imitating Marlene Dietrich in Der blaue Engel.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  27. Freier Fall Junior Member

    German
    While the 2002 film Zona Zamfirova did not use the line "Еј Недељо, мори, дилберо!" for the song Славуј пиле as already mentioned before, I wanted to know, whether Sremac's 1906 novel Zona Zamfirova did use the term. It did not use it for the song (page 10), but I found usage of the term at three text passages, using the 176 pages 1907 edition (in: Srpska književna zadruga):

    1. (page 19f): This passage is about Manasije's "Mane" mother Jevda and her dead husband. As far as I understood it means, that it uses the term дилбер as epithet for her husband (by the way all those three mentioned epithets челеби, дилбер, and ашик seem to be Balkan "turcisms" of different origin:
    "
    Јевда, мајка Манина, била је још лепа и држећа жена, још испод четрдесет година. Остала је рано удовица. Имала је мужа којега је волела и обожавала, јер је и телом и душом био лепота од човека. А и сам епитет — управо епитети — сведоче то. У чаршији је имао неколико епитета: челеби-Ђорђија, дилбер-Ђорђија, ашик-Ђорђија."

    2. (page 4): I don't understand the meaning of this passage, but it uses дилбери:
    "Сваки ју је знао и певушио, и жењени и нежењени, и млади чапкуни и стари дилбери певуше је. Чак и прозаични ћир-Моша Абеншаам певушио би је, кад би што добро продао, или кад би сарафећи кога забушио и преварио — и он би, трљајући руке, певао ту песму."

    3. (page 169f): Again I don't understand the meaning of this passage or the use of дилбер-дудија:
    "Зато се и одвојила и повукла у ћошак, и оданде једнако гледа нетремице у Ману и чека кад ће поручити ону његову (или боље рећи, њихову) песму „Кад ја имам“, песму коју је дилбер-Дудија донела амо чак из Мостара, а чучук-Ајша је најрадије и најлепше певала, јер се цела песма на њу односила, и Мане до сада увек, на њу мислио и гледао, кад се та песма певала."

    In a book of 1907, dealing with Southeastserbia of the late 1880s or 1890s, дилбер seems to have been in use, maybe for males and females, not often, but it should be enough to get records in better dictionaries.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015

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