By VERB-ing

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by trigel, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. trigel Senior Member

    English - US, Korean
    What are the canonical ways (and any colloquial variants) to express the general idea of "verb by means of verb-ing"?
    Examples as in "I got here by riding a train", "He learned Japanese by playing Japanese video games", "I slaughtered the cat by using a knife", "By studying you improve your chance of getting a good grade".
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  2. origumi Senior Member

    There's no "canonical" way. There are several different alternatives to express the idea. "הגעתי הנה בנסיעה ברכבת". "הוא למד יפנית על ידי משחק בגיימבוי". ליטפתי את החתול בידי". "באמצעות לימוד אתה משפר את סיכוייך לקבל ציון טוב".
  3. C_J Junior Member

    If you're looking for a formula, it would be " ב.../על ידי/תוך כדי באמצעות + שם פעולה"
    "הגעתי לכאן בנסיעה ברכבת", "הוא למד יפנית תוך כדי משחק במשחקי וידאו יפניים", הוא שחט את החתול תוך כדי שימוש בסכין", באמצעות למידה (לימודים), אתה משפר את סיכוייך לקבל ציון גבוה"

    While this is grammatically correct, it doesn't mean that this is always the best style to use however, as it can create redundacies:
    "הגעתי לכאן בנסיעה ברכבת" ,
    "הוא שחט את החתול תוך כדי שימוש בסכין (באמצעות סכין)"
  4. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    And what about בללמוד belilmod and בלמוד bilmod ?
  5. trigel Senior Member

    English - US, Korean
    To put is simplistically belilmod is wrong, bilmod is (regrettably) archaic.
  6. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I would have guessed so, but how much is belilmod ​actually used ?
  7. C_J Junior Member

    Yeah, it is possible to use מקור נטוי + בכל"ם to express this meaning, but as trigel said it's only used in poetry/biblical language.
    The only exception is ל+מקור נטוי, which is also called שם הפועל" (ללמוד, לכתוב, לשמור)ץ", which is still widely used.
    I can't think of an example where you can stack more than one בכל"ם on a מקור (like you suggest in "בללמוד", which would literally mean "by to study" unlike "בלמוד" = "by studying").
  8. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I think we're facing a shift. I don't think that speakers are still aware of that ל in lilmod. For that matter, lilmod starts to be used like lamod used to be, and is slowly replacing it for all purposes. Including adjunction of בכל״ם. We'll see in 200 years :)
  9. origumi Senior Member

    Seems that you are mixing infinitive construct (the lemod alone and in lilmod, kilmod, bilmod, milmod), and infinitive absolute (lamod).
  10. C_J Junior Member

    Yes they're not the same: שָמוֹר doesn't mean much by itself, and has no English equivalents. The emphasis and the change of meaning that it gives to שָמוֹר אשמור, הָיֹה היה, is also not really translatable to English.
    לשמור - to guard (infinitive)
    בשמור, כשמור, and משמור Have varying meanings and don't have a single English equivalent.

    BTW, I got mixed up before: only binyan qal has different maqor muhlat and maqor natuy. The rest of them have only one maqor, and pu'al and huf'al have no maqor at all (since the latter two have nothing to use בכל"ם on, they also have no infinitives).
  11. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Sorry, thank you for the precision.
  12. trigel Senior Member

    English - US, Korean
    יש דרכים לבטא משמעות זו אם אין לפועל שם פעולה (למשל, פועלים בבניינים פועל והופעל) או שיש לשם פעולה משמעות שונה מהפועל?
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013
  13. ystab Senior Member

    One option that I can think of is the form of the verb היה + the present form: בהיותו מוזמן לכנס הוא קיבל חזרה את הוצאות הלינה שלו - By being invited to the convention, he was refunded with his accommodation expenses.
  14. C_J Junior Member

    Those two binyanim don't have infinitives (shem poal) and genrunds (shem peula, English "verbing") because they're derived from their "parent" binyanim: pual-piel, and hufal-hifil.
    So in case you need a gerund or an infinitive for pual/hufal you get them from piel/hifil respectively.

    As ystab points out, ב + maqor form are still used as "shem peula" in certain cases (without sounding archaic that is).
    Also note the construction that ystab uses to describe a "passive" action - being + v3 (by being invited/ being frozen). In cases such as this, the "infinitive" will be "to be invited / to be frozen".
    In this case Hebrew equivalents would be ב+היות + מופעל, and - בהיותו מוזמן, בהיותם מוקפאים

    The gerund/shem peula in these cases are "being" and "ב+היות" and not "inviting/freezing" - הזמנה/הקפאה (notice the switch to hifil from hufal הוזמן/הוקפא).
  15. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    Is there a website that contains all the derivations of להיות in one place? For example היות and יהי (jussive) and many other biblical forms don't appear on the standard conjugation of the verb.
  16. ystab Senior Member

    I don't know if there is a website, but I can give you some tools for this kind of roots, called נחי ל״י, where the last letter of the root is Yod (or in some places Heh):

    In general the Yod turns into a mater lectonis or omitted (depends on the vowel that precedes it). Some specific tools:
    1. The infinitive form ends with ות, i.e. ראות, היות, כלות, עלות.
    2. In the jussive form the final root letter is omitted, just like in Arabic in this group of roots - ויבך, ויבז, וירא, ויעל, ותהר.
    In Arabic this omission also applies for the imperative, but I don't recall such a form in Hebrew except for הך (beat).
    3. In modern Hebrew there are two forms for the feminine singular present in these roots: one ends with ה and it goes with the binyanim of pa'al, pi'el, pu'al, hif'il and also hitpa'el. The other ends with ית, mainly in nif'al and huf'al. There are exceptions though.

    Maybe I forgot one tool, but this, I hope, can help you a bit.
  17. C_J Junior Member

    היה behaves exactly like any other paal verb in גיזרת נל"י/ה as ystab said, so you can easily compare it with other verbs like "בנה".
    It's main irregularity lies in the absence of the "present" conjugations - thus there are no equivalents to "בונה/בונים/בונות"
    It also has the very rare "הָיׂה" form, which is a remnant from an ancient internal passive binyan of paal, if I'm not mistaken (edit: it's maqor muhlat) . This is very rare even in bibical Hebrew, and nowadays it's almost exclusively used in the "הָיׂה הָיָה" combination which means "once upon a time".
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  18. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    Thank you, very interesting.
  19. ystab Senior Member

    The present form of היה is הווה. The problem is that for copula Hebrew uses הוא and היא, and not the verb to be as in English. Therefore, the only usage for this word is in its other, but close sematically, meaning - present. This word does appear as the present form of היה in the piyyut Adon Olam - והוא היה, והוא הווה והוא יהיה בתפארה.

    The form of infinitive הָיֹה, in its emphasis meaning as in היֹה היָה, also appears in the verb גאה in the Song of the Sea (Exo. 15:2).
  20. origumi Senior Member

    Neither rare nor requires isolated examples. הָיֹה is infinitive absolute = מקור מוחלט. There are quite a few threads about this form in the forum. See also
  21. C_J Junior Member

    Well, obviously you can create הווה/הוות/הווים, and they were used here in there in literature (not only in Adon Olam)... I always wanted to know when and why these conjugations fell out of use...
    So I was mistaken after all. It appears then, that היׂה is maqor muhlat, and היות is maqor natuy, correct? In this case, yes, maqor form are frequently used in the bible.

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