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  1. samarkanda Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Catalan / Spanish (Spain)
    Hello.

    I'm trying to find a way to say "castizo" in English, but the translations in the WR dictionary are not quite what I'm looking for.

    Terms like "pure" or "authentic" miss the negative nuance that "castizo" has in the text I am translating. I will use "old and traditional" if I can't find anything more specific, but thought I'd ask here for ideas!

    Thank you.
     
  2. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    Can you provide context?
     
  3. samarkanda Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Catalan / Spanish (Spain)
    Hello MarlyK.

    The context is a decoration proposal: "La propuesta tiene una imagen más castiza y algo pasado de moda que no conecta con los clientes".

    So far I have: "The proposal has an old and traditional image, somewhat out of fashion, that does not connect with the customers".
     
  4. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    outdated? old-fashioned?
     
  5. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    How about "fusty"?

    fus•ty(ˈfʌs ti)

    adj. -ti•er, -ti•est.1. having a stale smell.
    2. old-fashioned; out-of-date.
    3. stubbornly conservative; fogyish.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  6. Raquel8 Senior Member

    USA English
    Castellano de Uruguay, básico
    Qué tal antiquated?
     
  7. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    I would avoid "conservative" "fogyish" and "antiquated." I would recommend "a traditional and somewhat outdated image that does not connect with..."
     
  8. samarkanda Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Catalan / Spanish (Spain)
    Thank you all for the ideas, I was stuck and there are so many options! I did some research with these ideas and thought fogyish / fogey might work.

    Kalamazoo, why do you say you would avoid this term?
     
  9. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    "Fogeyish" has the connotation of something that only old people might like. My suggestion was "fusty" which is a wee bit different, it's still outdated, but it also connotes someone who's "rigidly old-fashioned" and fastidious.
     
  10. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    "fogyish" is an odd word, not used that much, and mostly in the context of describing a person or a person's behavior. It would be a strange choice of word for a native speaker and it is rarely used in everyday speech.
     
  11. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    I would not recommend "fusty" either. I seem to be the only native speaker on here at the moment! Just because a dictionary definition seems appropriate doesn't mean that the word is a good choice.
     
  12. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    I've lived in NY since the age of 9, kalamazoo. And I do think that "fusty" is fine in a journalistic or literary context. No, you're right, it's not a word that people might use in the course of normal conversation, but I don't find it that unusual in articles, essays, etc. Maybe the best question is: Who's the reader, samarkanda? Is this aimed for a more informal setting or is this a journalistic article?
     
  13. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    I didn't mean to insult you, but I do think "fusty" would not be a good choice in this context. It's not a very common word, and I think there needs to be a special reason to choose an uncommon word. I also think a lot of people wouldn't even really know what fusty meant!
     
  14. samarkanda Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Catalan / Spanish (Spain)
    Many thanks for your input, this is the best thing about this forum, you can get to know if a work actually works or not beyond the dictionary definition! (MarlyK, I think you may as well list English as your native language too!).

    I must say I liked fusty or fogey because I thought they might say a bit more than the more neutral old-fashioned or antiquated. Do you think stale could work here? Or something along these lines...
     
  15. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    Really? I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm genuinely surprised that it's that uncommon and that people may not know what it means... Maybe it's a generational thing. [Shrug] It's good to know.

    Samarkand, "stale" is good, but it lacks that "old establishment" flavor that castizo connotes. Pero supongo que puedes decir "a stale and traditional image that..."
     
  16. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    I don't understand. Are you talking about the word "castizo"? Where does it say it means "old fashioned" or "antiquated"?

    castizo, za.
    (De or. inc.; cf. lat. *casticĕus, esp. casta).
    1. adj. De buen origen y casta.
    2. adj. Típico, puro, genuino de cualquier país, región o localidad.
    3. adj. Dicho del lenguaje: Puro y sin mezcla de voces ni giros extraños.
    4. adj. Dicho de un animal: Muy prolífico.
    5. adj. Par. Dicho de un hombre: Muy prolífico.
    Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados


    I know it's not a very commonly used word but I do use it when talking about the language: "Esta palabra es muy castiza" meaning it's "good Spanish".

    I think in the original sentence they misused the word. :rolleyes:

    :)
     
  17. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    "fusty" actually to a large extent suggests or implies things like dust and mold. So a "fusty" hotel, for example, suggests an old place that not much fresh air gets into and that smells kind of funny. In Google I found about 500,000 hits for "fusty" and over 60 million for outdated. If someone told me that an image was 'fusty' I would wonder what the person was actually trying to say. You can check the Google hits (many of which are to definitions) to see usages.
     
  18. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    Yes, it could mean moldy due to old age or dusty. However, that is not the only use of it; here are some uses of "fusty" in the New York Times for the past 12 months: http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/#/fusty/365days/. However, if there is so much confusion about the word, then "stale' might work for Samarkand in this context.
     
  19. scotu Senior Member

    Paradise: LaX.Nay.Mex.
    Chicago English
    Why not simply "old fashioned"? In these days this has a slightly negative but "pure" connotation.

    A degree more negative would be "antiquated".
     
  20. samarkanda Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Catalan / Spanish (Spain)
    micafe,

    Indeed castizo means old-fashioned, but in the original context (and very often in Spain) it has an added meaning of something that is closed and away from modernity, also someting that is inextricably Spanish. To me it conjures dust, strong smells, lack of interest for what's happening in other places, even a hint of bigotry. This of course is not a formal definition for the word, but it does convey some of these elements to me.
     
  21. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    I think the word 'fusty' is somewhat literary. In many of the NY Times examples, it is used in conjunction with another word like "venerable" or "Victorian" or some other kind of context which makes it pretty clear to the reader what the idea is. As a stand-alone word, it's not that common and I don't think it is a very good choice.
     
  22. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    My point was that "castizo" does not mean old-fashioned. It's not really important... :p
     
  23. MarlyK

    MarlyK Senior Member

    NYC
    Spanish - Venezuelan
    Bueno, creo que todos hemos aprendido un montón.
     
  24. scotu Senior Member

    Paradise: LaX.Nay.Mex.
    Chicago English
    Of course we read it (and like most of your posts it was a useful contribution to the thread).... but we have been responding to this additional challenge from the OP: "
     
  25. abb1025

    abb1025 Senior Member

    USA
    English USA
    What about stodgy? One of its meanings is "extremely old-fashioned."
     
  26. autrex2811

    autrex2811 Senior Member

    Toluca, México
    Español-castellano, son lo mismo
    Buen día. Un comentario mío algo ajeno a su traducción. Para mí castizo no es "ni viejo ni tradicional", sino más bien "con tendencia a puro". No digo que su acepción esté mal, sólo es un pequeño paréntesis.

    Saludos.
     
  27. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Just as I said.
     
  28. Omada Senior Member

    España
    Español, España
    Yo estoy de acuerdo con Micafé, para mí la palabra "castizo" tampoco tiene ese significado, ni todas esas connotaciones, ni el diccionario tampoco. Es posible que el autor de ese texto use esa palabra con ese sentido, y que uno pueda pensar que lo "castizo" o lo "folclórico" está pasado de moda, o que lo esté de hecho, pero no cambia el significado de la palabra.
     
  29. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    highfallutin' ???
    (primero pensé en 'folksy' pero 'castizo' es más bien 'de buena calidad/de tradición/tradicional')
     
  30. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    As to the English translation, I think it would be easier to figure out the best word to use if the OP could give a few more details about what is wrong with the image.
     
  31. samarkanda Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Catalan / Spanish (Spain)
    ¡Qué curioso! Para mí desde luego puede tener estas connotaciones. No necesariamente, se puede usar simplemente para referirse a algo tradicional, pero te aseguro que yo lo he oído en situaciones en las que es casi sinónimo de rancio o casposo, y creo que es el sentido en el que se utilizaba en el texto que estoy traduciendo, de ahí este hilo. ¡Y lo que ha dado de sí!

    By the way, kalamazoo, there is nothing "wrong" with the image, but the text is about people's opinions of it and what certain pictures say to them. In this particular case, they are clearly opposing it to another one wich is fresh and contemporary. I'm still undecided as to how I will translate it, but maybe I'll just settle for old-fashioned since I am concerned futsy may not be widely understood.

    Muchas gracias a todos los que habéis participado, como dice MarlyK, todos hemos aprendido mucho.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  32. EddieZumac

    EddieZumac Senior Member

    Mexico City
    English/Spanish
    "Castizo" is to Spain as All American is to USA.
     
  33. Trakker Junior Member

    Spanish-Chile
    The only negative nuance I can see in your sentence is: "algo pasado de moda". In what refers to "castizo" there doesn't seem to be any negative nuance there, so your translation "old and traditional image" I find it very adequate.
     
  34. merquiades

    merquiades Senior Member

    France
    USA Northeast
    The proposal has a rather conventional image that is somewhat out of date and might not connect with clients.

    The proposal has a rather classical image, now somewhat antiquated, and may no longer connect with clients.
     
  35. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    I would also suggest "a more traditional but somewhat dated image that might not connect with clients"
     
  36. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    You've got a point there :thumbsup:

    :)
     
  37. Nipnip Senior Member

    Español
    Agreed. Now, the point is that being "All American" (castizo for Spain) is in this context not a desirable quality. Traditional, pure, peculiar to, typical of: all these qualities but seen as negative against modernization or cosmopolitanism.
     
  38. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Yes. Maybe it's just too "castizo" to meet the requirements of the clients... It can happen, maybe they don't like traditional stuff.. But then, we cannot translate "too castizo" as "too all American" :):D
     
  39. Abyssland Junior Member

    Madrid
    Spanish - Spain
    Hello to everybody!

    I'm a castizo! Why? Because I was born in Madrid. Let me explain a little bit. Some decades ago, in the 30's 40's 50's... there was a kind of "invented" language commonly used in Madrid. As far as I know it was mixed with some kind of gypsy words. The structure of the language was absolutely Spanish but all the words were changed. Let me give you a couple of examples: peluco - reloj (watch), pinrel - pie (foot), afanar - robar (to steal)... It was really complicated to understand and people of my age (round 40's) we just got to know a couple of those words but never really got the language. In fact, if there's an old movie when there are people speaking like that, it usually has subtitles. Well, that's for us "hablar en castizo" which means to speak in that old-fashion style. Another point is when there is a feast day like "La Paloma" or "San Isidro", some people dress up in that old-fashion style (theyr'e called "chulapos") and meet up to dance by the river (you know, traditions). Those fest-days are said to be "las fiestas más castizas de Madrid" Do you know what I mean? And in Spain, as every area has its own identity, if you use here the word "castizo" it would bring you to mind not only an old-fashion thing or even kind of "authentic" as has been said here, but also something realated to Madrid (which, by the way, was known in "castizo-style" as "El Foro") ;)

    Hope it helps
     
  40. Keahi Senior Member

    España
    castellano, Perú
    Hola.
    Y para agregar más leña al fuego, en América al menos en Perú la palabra se conoce pero es obsoleta y quería decir hijo de español (casto o puro) y mestizo (hijo de español e indio).
    Como ven "castizo" por esos lares no es puro.
    Y como tengo que sugerir acerca de la pregunta inicial, lo haré interpretando la frase que has puesto Samarkanda.
    Primero has dicho "castizo", en un sentido de típico o soso, según lo he interpretado y luego pasado de moda, entonces para "castiza", yo te sugiero, De estilo conservador, "Conservative style" y luego pasado de moda, y voy a agregar uno a los que ya te han mencionado, "Bygone style".
    En fotografía de arquitectura se usa mucho pero no sé si encajará en el tema de ropas.
    Un abrazo.
     
  41. donbeto

    donbeto Senior Member

    Vancouver (Canada)
    Eng(Canada)
    Disculpe si ya mencionado (este hilo es tan largo). pero sugiero "quaint". No tiene sentido mal.
     
  42. EddieZumac

    EddieZumac Senior Member

    Mexico City
    English/Spanish
    Thanks for supporting me, micafe. I really appreciate it, especially from you.
    It seems that others here don't get my point, but instead are looking for "trés pies al gato" for the word castizo.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  43. EddieZumac

    EddieZumac Senior Member

    Mexico City
    English/Spanish
    Sorry Donbeto, but "quaint" just doesn't cut the mustard for a translation for "castizo".
     
  44. kalamazoo Senior Member

    US, English
    I think it would be easier to figure out a good English translation if we could understand better what the problem with the image is. "Quaint" would apply in some cases, but not in others. And so on. Is this an image that depicts an activity that is no longer carried out? Is this an image drawn in a style that suggests newspaper ads from 1940? Does it show people dressed in a style that is uncommon today? What is it about this image that is turning some clients off?
     
  45. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    I think this will be my last post since it seems we all understand "castizo" in different ways and we'll never agree..:D

    What I understand, the meaning of "castizo" is more or less this:

    Proper, appropriate, respectable, correct, decorous, right, seemly, precise.

    :)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  46. EddieZumac

    EddieZumac Senior Member

    Mexico City
    English/Spanish
    I spoke to my relatives in Bilbao today. I asked them what they thought that the word "castizo" meant.
    They said: "De buena procedencia. Es un término que se usa casi exclusivamente para referirse a asuntos de Madrid. No dirías nunca 'Una sevillana muy castiza'".
     
  47. EddieZumac

    EddieZumac Senior Member

    Mexico City
    English/Spanish
    Your list of meanings for "castizo" is very good.
    All that's missing is the relationship with Madrid.
     
  48. micafe

    micafe Senior Member

    United States
    Spanish - Colombia
    Didn't they tell you it refers to proper Castilian language also? (AKA Spanish)
     
  49. EddieZumac

    EddieZumac Senior Member

    Mexico City
    English/Spanish
    Yes, as a matter of fact, they did mention "of the Castille region", but mostly Madrid.
     

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