CH, LL, RR (Dígrafo)

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by melissambwilkins, Nov 30, 2009.

  1. melissambwilkins

    melissambwilkins Junior Member

    English (U.S.) - United States of America
    A student told me the other day that in Venezuela (his home country) the alphabet was taught with not only CH and LL, but with RR. I know RR was never considered a "letter" in the alphabet, and that CH and LL are no longer considered separate letters of the Spanish alphabet, but I was wondering if any of you knew of places in Latin America in which a version of the alphabet was taught that differs from what the RAE lists as the official Spanish alphabet?
  2. danielfranco

    danielfranco Senior Member

    When I was a child growing up in Mexico City, I learned the alphabet with CH and LL and RR.

    But, alas, that was over thirty years ago!

    I think nowdays they have finally accepted that CH is a C and an H together, and that double R's and L's only mean two of the same letter, not a different letter.

  3. caniho Senior Member

    Andalusian Spanish
    As far as I know ch and ll are still considered separate letters of the Spanish alphabet. Always have been.

  4. Áristos

    Áristos Senior Member

    Cieza (Murcia, España)
    español (España)
    I'm afraid that's not correct. The RAE changed that rule some years ago. If you have a look at the DRAE, you will see that "che" and "elle" are no longer defined as "letra" but as "dígrafos".

    I'm 25 and the alphabet I was taught at school included "CH" and "LL" as separate letters, BUT NEVER "RR". Not in Spain.
    Needless to say, children don't learn the "old" alphabet in Spanish schools any more, and Spanish dictionaries don't have separate sections for "ch" and "ll".

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  5. caniho Senior Member

    Andalusian Spanish
  6. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Modómano, 'mano

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    "Ch" an "Ll" are actually letters of the abecedario (Spanish alphabet). The kind of letters we call "dígrafos".

    They are just not considered as separate letters when organizing things in alphabetical order. That was decided in 1994 (Well, I'm not very sure about the year).

    When I was a little kid, I was tought to say "...eñe, o, pe, cu, ere, ese, te..."; I mean, no "erre" mentioned.

  7. MarieSuzanne Senior Member

    Cataluña, España
    Castellano - Argentina
    Sí, en Argentina también decimos "ere" a la r del abecedario (y reservamos "erre" para la rr). Pero en España es común llamar erre a la r.
  8. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Modómano, 'mano

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    I found something:

    The RAE's DPD's entry "abecedario" reads something like: "Spanish alphabet is conformed today by the follwing 29 letters: a, b, c, ch, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, ll, m, n, ñ, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z."

    Below, it continues: "[This version of the latin alphabet] had been used by the Academia since 1803 in the drawing-up of their alphabetical lists. (...) in the X Congreso de la Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española, celebrated in 1994, it was agreed to adopt the universal latin alphabetical order, where ch and ll are not considered independent letters". Notice that this only works for alphabetical listing.

    The erre doble (rr) has not been included in the official alphabet for several reasons. I think one of those is that it doesn't starts any word.

    As Marie said, it seems in América que prefer "ere" over "erre" unless needing to refer to the consonant's sound. Carro se escribe con erre (or: con doble erre). As far as I know (I asked my relatives in Venezuela about it), in my neighbour country, the erre doble is not tought as part of the Spanish alphabet either.

    When reciting the abecedario, you can say either "erre" or "ere" for R, but not both.

  9. JB

    JB Senior Member

    Santa Monica, CA, EEUU
    English (AE)
    When I first starting studying Spanish (high school, 1961-1964) I learned "r" and "rr" as separate letters.
    Perhaps this was just a teaching method in the U.S. -I don't know - but was under the impression these were considered distinct, separate letters (along with ch and ll). At least some of my teachers were native speakers (Latin America).

    I am surprised to see a statement that excludes "rr" since 1803 - slightly before I was born!.

    I also remember being taught that "k" was not part of the official Spanish alphabet, and occurred only in words of foreign origin, but that it was in the process of being accepted.

    When I taught at a colegio in Mexico (1984-1985) "my kids" corrected me. As far as they were concerned, "k" was and always had been part of the alphabet, going back to the dinosaurs.
  10. elirlandes

    elirlandes Senior Member

    Dublin & Málaga
    Ireland English
  11. MarieSuzanne Senior Member

    Cataluña, España
    Castellano - Argentina
    La "k" por supuesto que pertenece al alfabeto castellano, puesto que está presente en muchas palabras derivadas del griego.

    La que sólo está en términos extranjeros es la "w".
  12. Áristos

    Áristos Senior Member

    Cieza (Murcia, España)
    español (España)

    (De di-2 y -grafo).

    1. m. Ling. Signo ortográfico compuesto de dos letras para representar un fonema; p. ej., en español ll, en francés ou, en catalán ny.

    Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados

    Se mantienen en el alfabeto, pero no como letras, sino dígrafos. Así que no se puede considerar que "ch" y "ll" siguen siendo letras separadas, como alguien dijo antes, porque no es así. No estoy de acuerdo con la denominación usada en ese artículo del DPD en su punto 1.
    Por eso, ni aparecen en el diccionario ni se enseñan en las escuelas. Y esto último lo puedo asegurar yo de primera mano porque tengo familiares maestros: en las escuelas españolas ya no se enseña a los niños el alfabeto ni con la "ch" ni con la "ll".

    Por cierto, como dijo MarieSuzanne, en españa al recitar el alfabeto siempre decimos "erre" al llegar a la letra "r". No decimos "ere".
    "Ere" sólo lo decimos cuando queremos explicar a alguien si una palabra se escribe con "rr" o con "r", para evitar confusiones.
    - Profesor, ¿"enredo" se escribe con ere o con erre?
    - Se escribe con ere.

  13. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Modómano, 'mano

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    That's right, Áristos. But 1803 is a number formed by four numbers. (I know, it may not work the same for letters :D)

    Anyway... :mad: I refuse dropping the che and the elle!

    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
  14. Áristos

    Áristos Senior Member

    Cieza (Murcia, España)
    español (España)
    Drop them, for goodness sake!!! :mad:
    Keep up to date, mano!!

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