christeln (Mauthner)

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I suppose this is not a word that belongs to the Dictionary, but just a joke of the author - or does the word exist? I would assume that it could be translated into Engl. as something like "christianize" or "act in a christian way"...


    "Die Botschaft von der Wiederkehr des Gleichen, von der ewigen Wiederkunft aller Dinge, war keine fröhliche Wissenschaft; es wäre wohl möglich (und wäre nicht unedel gewesen), daß Rohde sich von seinem Freunde Nietzsche abwandte, als dieser das Lebenswerk Rohdes, die Arbeit an der Zerstörung des Seelenbegriffs, zu stören drohte; so wie Nietzsche, der Antichrist, Richard Wagner zu hassen begann, als dieser zu christeln anfing." (Mauthner)

    Does anyone have suggestions?
     
  2. perpend

    perpend Senior Member

    American English
    I understand it is more like "as he began to turn toward the church/Christ"
     
  3. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese

    But then wouldn't the word stays at the dictionary?
     
  4. perpend

    perpend Senior Member

    American English
    Not necessarily. These are "word constructions". "herbsteln" kenne ich auch. It means: autumn is in the air

    I don't know, but maybe that is in the dictionary.

    EDIT: And also, for an analogy, it means "it's beginning to turn autumn/fall", if you see the parallel. That was my point.
     
  5. Hamlet2508 Senior Member

    English
    I'd say it means to behave like a Christian , like go to Mass every Sunday, say prayers every morning and evening , etc. but definitely meant to be derogatory.
     
  6. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I see your point, perpend. :)
     
  7. perpend

    perpend Senior Member

    American English
    Hamlet, I agree that in this particular context/text "christeln" comes out derogatory. I wouldn't consider it always derogatory.
     
  8. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    No doubt it is derogatory... In fact, that's why I would rather find an "invented word" for a fine equivalence. Because if I say, for example, "he started doing christianities" (or smthg. like that), I'm obviously being derogatory. This tone does not necessarily appear with just "to behave like a Christian" or "to act like a Christian" or "to turn towards Christ".
     
  9. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I understand why you wouldn't consider it always derogatory, but I still think that in this context a word should be used which could passes this tone...
     
  10. Hamlet2508 Senior Member

    English
    Actually, I've only ever come across examples of CHRISTELN that in some way ridicule the concept of CHRIST(IN) SEIN , because the person concerned either overdoes it or simply does not do enough.

    There is a word , which comes close to CHRISTELN , but does not carry the aspect of being a Christian , namely FROEMMELN.The dictionary gives "sich [übertrieben] fromm gebärden, [übertriebene] Frömmigkeit zur Schau stellen" .
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  11. perpend

    perpend Senior Member

    American English
    You could use "until he "found God"", but I'd put the "found God" in quotes, which gives it a derogatory tone.

    You could also use "born again", but again, you'll find that this does not translate well into English.

    Please keep asking questions, Loewenfrau, and maybe someone will figure out the appropriate tone. I have some errands to run.
     
  12. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    In context, it means "play at Christianity". Nietzsche would not have supposed that Wagner was converting to Christianity, only that he was toying with it.
     
  13. Resa Reader Senior Member

    Ich glaube, du hast den Nagel auf den Kopf getroffen. :thumbsup: (That's exactly what "christeln" says here, in my opinion.)
     
  14. Gernot Back

    Gernot Back Senior Member

    Cologne, Germany
    German - Germany
    Like on nouns (Band -> Bänd(s)el; Kind -> Kindel ),
    the ending -el on verbs is a diminutive suffix
    (klingen [to sound] -> klingeln [to ring]; kochen [to boil] -> köcheln [to simmer]; lachen [to laugh] -> lächeln [to smile] ) .

    In my point of view, a possibly derogatory tone is due to the fact that the "diminished" action expressed by such a verb with diminutive ending can often not be taken as seriously as the "undiminished" action expressed by the corresponding verb without the diminutive ending (tanzen [to dance] -> tänzeln [to prance]; husten -> hüsteln)
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  15. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    In this sense, I could also use "he started doing christianities/christishness"? (Or, anyway, a created word in like manner) Means the same as "play at Christianity", I just don't know if it sounds good.
     
  16. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    In this sense, I could also use "he started doing christianities/christishness"? Or, anyway, a created word in like manner) Means the same as "play at Christianity", I just don't know if it sounds good.
     
  17. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    Children play with toys, but play at being e.g. firemen. I think Nietzsche is complaining that Wagner is pretending, in the way that children do, to take Christianity seriously.

    "Doing Christianity" misses the point, that Wagner (according to Nietzsche) was merely pretending to take Christianity seriously.
     
  18. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I was thinking of that when suggested "christishness": because of the similarity with "childishness".
     
  19. Robocop Senior Member

    Central Switzerland
    (Swiss) German
    I know the word "frömmeln" (fromm tun, pejorative term) very well. It means to be sanctimonious. In contrast, "christeln" is a new word to me but I would intuitively interpret it as "to pretend to be a christian".
     
  20. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    Deutschland (Hamburg)
    German/Germany
    I know the word "christeln" and it is not that uncommon in my region. It has a derogatory connotation (as Gernot explained with hüsteln) and it is close to frömmeln.

    I do not see the aspect "to pretend to be" in the foreground, but more the ridicule that the author holds Christian behaviour to be.
     
  21. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Thanks for answering, Kajjo. :) My choice was "fazer cristianices" - that in Portuguese, which I used exactly to express the author's opinion that a Christian behaviour is ridicule; and more precisely: in/on Richard Wagner such a behaviour is ridiculous.
     

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