Christus hat das Sakrament beider Gestalt eingesetzt.

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hallo Liebe Leute,

    Ich kann in dieser Passage den Satz nicht genau verstehen:

    ""... die beiden Elemente im Sakrament des Abendmahls bezeichnete und von Luther übersetzt wurde: Christus hat das Sakrament beider Gestalt eingesetzt. Brentano kannte die Wortgeschichte schlecht, als er dichtete:»Brot und Wein, die zwei Gestalten,
    Sind nur Zeichen, sie enthalten
    Gottes volle Wesenheit.«

    Christus hat das Sakrament beider Gestalt eingestellt? Ich habe was nicht verstanden, in der Beziehung einsetezen - das Sakrament beider Gestalt..

    Vielen Dank im Voraus!
     
  2. Demiurg

    Demiurg Senior Member

    Germany
    German
    "einsetzen" bedeutet hier so etwas wie "begründen" (to establish).

    Christus hat das "Sakrament beider Gestalt" begründet, er hat es zum ersten Mal zelebriert (beim letzten Abendmahl).
     
  3. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Ach so, vielen Dank Demiurg!
     
  4. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    Beider Gestalt--- als Wein sowie als Brot. Das bezieht sich bestimmt auf die Frage, die die Kirchenreformatoren so auf geregt hat, ob das Volk den Leib Christi in beiden Gestalten verzehren sollte, oder nur in einer.
     
  5. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I got confused again... I thought it was, literally:
    "Christ has taken shape in both sacraments (the sacrament of bread and the sacrament of wine)."

    As you say, it means rather:
    "Christ established the sacrament of both shapes (the shape of bread and the shape of wine)."

    I understand that both constructions, in the end, come to the same. But I would like to know how is grammar functioning here.

    I appreciate again! :)
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    “beider Gestalt” is genitive singular. This is technical term in theological discourse, corresponding to “sacramentum sub utraque specie”, or“sacrament under both kinds”.
     
  7. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Genitive singular; so, the word order is changed, right? Normally, we would say "Gestalt beider" - isn't it?
    Thanks.
     
  8. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    No. "beider Gestalt" is literally "of both form". It sounds a bit strange because one would expect a genitive plural. I think it is because utraque specie is (ablative) singular as well.
     
  9. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Yes, that's what I was finding weird. I would surely expect it to be a genitive plural.
     
  10. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    This is a special form of the classifying genitive. Its use is rather restrictive and I find it difficult to formulate a rule when this construct is applicable. Examples: Menschen beiden Geschlechts; tausender Art Tiere; Gegenstände verschiedener Form. (also Dative: Gegenstände von verschiedener Form). The latter can also be formulated with von+dative, Gegenstände von verschiedener Form, and also exists in English: objects of different/various shape (not shapes).
     
  11. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    With your explanation I think I've got it. In your examples, it is used with classifying words (Geschlecht, Art Tiere...) accompanied by a number or a word with a number meaning (beide, tausend, verschiedene...). There's always the same structure.
    Thanks a lot, I've learn something else. :)
     

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