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Colloquial/Nonstandard Czech

Discussion in 'Čeština (Czech)' started by slavicka, Jul 24, 2012.

  1. slavicka New Member

    English - Canada
    Hello!

    I am trying to find all the colloquial and non-standard spellings/words in a few passages in two translations of Alice in Wonderland into Czech. I've marked the ones I think are colloquial or non-standard with an asterisk (in #1), but I'd appreciate a native speaker of Czech's special intuition for all of them. :) Czech textbooks don't usually teach nonstandard and colloquial words, unfortunately!

    1. ‘I tuhle *sem, milosti! Kopu *jabka, milosti!’
    ‘I to je nějaká ruka, milosti.‘
    ‚I to jí zas je, milosti; ale přesto přese všecko je to ruka.‘

    2. „Kde je ten žebrík? – No jo, vždyt‘ jsem měl přinést jen jeden. Vaněk má ten druhý. –Vanku, sem s ním, hochu! –Tady je postav, do tohohle kouta. –Ne, napřed je svaž dohromady. –Vždyt‘ nedosahují ani do poloviny. –Ó, to úlně stačí, nedělej tolik cavyků...

    3. „Kde je druhý žebřík? –Měl jsem přinést jeden! Vilík nese druhý – Vilíku! Podej ho sem, chlapče! –Opřete je tady na rohu – Ne, napřed je svažte – to zdaleka nestačí – ba jo, stačí, jen se neboj – Hej, Vilíku! Chyt‘ ten provaz – Neproboří se střecha?- Hele, Vanku, chytni ten provaz...

    4. „Všechny se dovedou šlebit,“ řekla Vévodkyně, „a povětšině se šklebí.“

    5. „Všecky to dovedou,“ řekla Vévodkyně, „a většinou se také šlebí.“

    Many thanks!
     
  2. slavicka New Member

    English - Canada
    Bump.

    More specifically, if anyone knows: is přese correct (I thought it should be přes)? Sem is obviously Common Czech for jsem; bat' is dialectal for ba. Can anybody identify some other words that are either not spelled 'correctly' or are dialectal?

    Děkují.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  3. Enquiring Mind Senior Member

    UK/Česká republika
    English - the Queen's
    Hello slavicka, the natives don't seem to be replying, maybe they're all on holiday. As you've bumped your thread, I will try to help, though I'm an "anybody", not a native Czech speaker. Maybe people don't want to get bogged down in trying to define where the line is between non-standard and/or colloquial Czech, and what exactly these terms mean. There's a useful paper (in Czech) by Karel Tahal about the differences between spisovná čeština and obecná čeština at the end of his very good grammar here (pp 260 etseq.).

    Přese is correct and not colloquial. The "e" on the end is needed before a word beginning with certain combinations of consonant sounds. You most often see it in the phrase "přese všechno". It would be quite difficult to say "přes všechno". You also see the addition of the "e" with other prepositions such as "od" (ode mě), "z" (ze zdravotních důvodů), "skrz" (skrze skalní průrvu), nad (nade vším vítězí láska), pod (pode mnou), etc.

    In addition to the words you picked up, všecko and všecky are colloquial. Jo is, I think, colloquial. Otherwise, the rest of it is what I would describe as standard Czech, but of course I bow to the superior knowledge of the natives.

    I am assuming that "úlně", "šlebit" and "šlebí" are not typing errors ("úplně", "šklebit" and "šklebí"), but are used to indicate some kind of speech mannerism.
     
  4. panzorzka.uli Junior Member

    Canberra
    Czech
    Hi Slavicka,
    I would define úlně, cavyky (expressive), ba jo (it is colloquial when used in this phrase, according the Slovník spisovné češtiny pro školu a veřejnost), šklebit, všecky (I'm not sure with this one).
    In Slovník spisovné češtiny you can find the information about the "stylistic value" (don't know the right term) of the word with abbrevitation "hov." for colloquial words. You might find this dictionary in your library.
    I hope it helped a bit.
     
  5. werrr Senior Member

    Adverb tuhle (not to be confused with homophone demonstrative pronoun) is colloquial/dialectal.

    Sem
    is not colloquial. It is phonetic spelling of standard jsem. It's sign of illiteracy to use it in Standard Czech unless in direct speech. I'm not aware of any codified standard for quoting non-standard speeches in Standard Czech but it seems to be common to quote it that way.

    Jabko is colloquial for jablko.

    Standard.
    Standard, but it makes no sense on its own. Likely an answer ellipsis.

    Standard. Všecko is standard alternative to všechno, though recently somehow unpopular for use in Standard Czech. It's frequent in colloquial Czech of all times.

    Jo is colloquial, cavyky is (are?) expressive but standard. The rest is standard with some typos.

    (By the way, do kouta and na rohu are opposite concepts of a sort. It seems that different translators had different understanding of the original.)

    Both is Standard Czech with some typos and povětšině is even bookish.


    In general, all translations you provided deviates from Standard Czech in terms of spelling and vocabulary, but only in direct speeches. There is no deviation in syntax and inflexion! (That means it is definitely not Common Czech.) It's too sketchy to say something well-judged about the style and word order.
     
  6. slavicka New Member

    English - Canada
    Thank you for all your comments. I did make a few typos in the first post that I can't edit, unfortunately, but I've finally found one translation online, so I'll copy and paste that translation with more context, in case anybody else would like to comment. So the colloquial/dialectal or 'phonetic spellings' that I know of as of now I'll mark with an asterisk *:

    "Petře! Petře! Kde jsi?" A jemu odpovídal hlas, kterého dosud neznala: "I *tuhle *sem, milosti! Kopu *jabka, milosti!"
    "*Jabka - *jabka!" řekl Králík hněvivě. "Sem pojď a pomoz mi z tohohle!"
    (Nový řinkot rozbitého skla.)
    "A teď mi řekni, Petře, co je to v tom okně?" "I to je nějaká
    ruka, milosti!"
    "Ruka - huso! Kdo kdy viděl takhle velikou ruku? Vždyť je
    jí plné okno!"
    "I to jí zas je, milosti; ale přesto přese *všecko je to ruka."
    "Nu, ať je to co chce, nemá to tam co dělat; běž a odkliď to!"
    Nato nastalo dlouhé ticho, v němž Alenka mohla jen chvílemi
    zaslechnout tiché šuškání, jako: "I to se mi nechce líbit,
    milosti, to se mi vůbec nechce líbit!"

    2. "Kde je ten žebřík? - No *jo, vždyť jsem měl přinést jen jeden. Vaněk má ten druhý. - Vaňku, sem s
    ním, hochu! Tady je postav, do tohohle kouta. - Ne, napřed je svaž dohromady. - Vždyť
    nedosahují ani do poloviny. - Ó, to úplně stačí, nedělej tolik cavyků. - Hele, Vaňku, chytni ten
    provaz. - Jen zdali se střecha neproboří ! - Pozor na ty vylámané tašky - oh, už to letí! Pozor
    na hlavy!" (Hlasitý třeskot.) "Kdo to udělal? - To byl asi Vaněk. - Tak
    kdo vleze do komína? - Ne ne, já ne! Ty tam vlez! - Já už teprve ne! -
    Ať tam vleze Vaněk. - Hele, Vaňku! Pán povídá, že musíš dolů vlézt
    komínem."

    3. "Všechny se dovedou šklebit," řekla Vévodkyně, "a povětšině se šklebí."
     

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