Comparative of أمين

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by clevermizo, Apr 15, 2007.

  1. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    How does one spell the comparative of أمين ,i.e. pronounced [2a2man] ? أأمن doesn't look right, but it does seem to get a lot of Google hits. Is this the correct way?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    أأمن of آمن but you should do a search on "أكثر أمانة" as well.
     
  3. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    I see. أكثر أمانة returns many more hits. Is that preferable just because أأمن looks/reads awkwardly?
     
  4. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    Yes that's what I think, as far as modern Arabic is concerned, but that doesn't mean أأمن and آمن are not used, as I've heard both among native speakers.

    It may very well be that the old Arabians saw nothing awkward in آمن at all. أأمن however might be another story, because as far as I know, the hamza was frowned upon among many Arab tribes (and today not a single bedouin dialect that I know of uses it), so a double hamza would be doubly objectionable. In my native dialect (central Arabia), an older person is more likely to say آمن and a younger, MSA-influenced person might use أأمن. In written Arabic, though, I think you'll find أكثر أمانة much more common. Hope I didn't confuse you.
     
  5. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Just to add to the confusion ;), in Palestinian Arabic we say "ha2man."

    We generally avoid two hamzas in a row (separated only by a vowel) and change the first one to a "h."
     
  6. Abu Bishr Senior Member

    Afrikaans, South Africa
    Hi All

    I think the comparative آمن is ambiguous, as it could be from أمانة (trustowrtiness) or أمن (safety & security). So I'll use أكثر أمانة for the former and أكثر أمناً for the latter. The form آمن can also be the perfect form of يؤمن (form IV) and imperfect first person of أَمِنَ - يَأْمَنُ (form I). So it's ambiguous in many ways, but it is especially ambiguous in the comparative form. As for the perfect (IV) and the imperfect (I), the end vowel as well as the context are enough to distinguish between the two.

    As for double hamzah, it is necessary to convert the second of two hamzahs into a long vowel the type of which is determined by the vowel of the hamzah preceding it. Thus,

    (1) آمَن from أًأْمَن,
    (2) أُوْمِن from أُؤْمِن, and
    (3) إِيْمَان from إِئْمَان.

    The forms marked in red are never written nor pronounced like that.
     
  7. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish

    So does that mean that the pronunciation أأمن strictly exists in colloquial? ِِ

    ِِAlso, after some Googling, it would seem that أكثر أمانة is used more in the sense of "more trustworthy" while أكثر أمناً in the sense of safer.

    This also arose because of a chapter out of Raja T. Nasr's intermediate colloquial book (Lebanese), where i found the form '2a2man' for 'safer,' and I was having a headache trying to figure out what the equivalent in fusHa would be of such a beast.

    Also, elroy, if in Palestinian, do you use 'h' to avoid awkward hamzas all the time? For example, how do you pronounce the word أقلّ? 'ha2all'? Maybe this is not as awkward because there is no sukuun? (It still is a really awkward word for me to say as a non-native :))
     
  8. Abu Bishr Senior Member

    Afrikaans, South Africa
    Hi clevermizo

    I'm not a native speaker of Arabic, but since colloquial Arabic is supposed to be more economical and easier to pronounce than both CA & MSA, I can't see how it would pronounce أأمن the hard way.

    I think a better and more common example to use would be آكُل (I eat) from أأكل . How do natives pronounce the latter? As is or do they convert the second of the two hamzahs into long vowel as do both CA and MSA?
     
  9. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    Well Wadi Hanifa reports above that in his dialect أأمن sometimes occurs. And it seems to occur in Lebanese, while in Palestinian, as elroy reports, there seems to be an alternate strategy of pronouncing هأمن instead.

    I have a suspicion that the existence of pronounced أأمن might be a hypercorrection/pseudo-classicism.

    In colloquial, the first person of أكل is آكل or even واكل and in Levantine, the normal prefix in the indicative is باكل. (Although in Jordan it is often بوكل .) The same is true of أخذ which is باخد or بوخد.

    Also, most hamzas that are hamza's in Classical Arabic are no longer hamzas in colloquial, except for certain things, like the prefix أ with the comparative/superlative, and some words like سأل.

    However, the hamza has reappeared in many dialects due to pronouncing the ق as ء, and sometimes in more awkward ways imho;). It can even take shadda, which I don't think is ever allowed in classical.

    I don't think any dialect has a profile that says it will necessarily be easier or more economical in pronunciation than the standard language. If anything, pronunciation can be more complicated to learn because all the "rules" or norms of pronunciation are not so easily accessible as in a traditional, regulated grammar, and involve complex processes of vowel apocope, epenthesis, emphasis spreading, consonant assimilation, etc. Classical Arabic, with all the short vowels in tact, and each phoneme having one pronunciation, is in a sense easier to pronounce because it has rigidly defined rules.
     
  10. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    First, I'd like to point my agreement with the others about the superlative being أكثر أمانة and not أأمن .
    I think we can use آمَن (aaman) for (safer) like:
    هذا البلد آمَن مِن غيره (this country is safer than [the] others).
    But of course أكثر أمنًا is also very much used, and may sound easier or even more "natural" to many.
    Same here in Egypt. We can also say البلد دي أمان أكتر من غيرها (el balad di amaan aktar men gherha) or البلد دي أأمن من غيرها ; or السكة دي أأمن من التانية es-sekka di a2man men et-tanya (this road is safer than the other).
    In Egypt we say a2al أألّ :)
    Also, (shorter أقصر) is pronounced a2Sar , (Nearer أقرب) is a2rab .

    Edit: I forgot to say that the superlative of "amiin" in Egyptian Arabic is أمين أكتر , like : التاجر ده أمين أكتر من التاجر التاني et-taager dah amiin aktar men et-taager et-taani.
     
  11. Abu Bishr Senior Member

    Afrikaans, South Africa
    Hi clevermizo

    I've just made a google search for أأمن as you've done, and I agree with you that there are quite a number of hits, and it's more in the sense of "safer" or "more secure" that it's used. So it appears to be used in coloquial Arabic in this way.

    The rule that I've given you is how it's classically formulated, and it's clear now that it's not necessarily applicable to colloquial Arabic in this regard. I assumed that that to be the case, but actual usage seems to indicate the contrary.

    ps. In classical Arabic it's possible for two hamzahs to be pronounced on condition both are vowelled, if the second is unvowelled then it must necessarily change into a long vowel.
     
  12. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    That's what I was trying to say. I said younger, MSA-influenced speakers may use it.
     
  13. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Urbana-Champaign, IL
    Am. English, Pal. Arabic (See profile)
    Clevermizo, in response to your question, yes, I believe the "h" strategy is applicable all the time - at least I can't think of a situation in which it wouldn't be used:

    I want to say: biddi ha2uul
    I want to sit: biddi ha23od
    shorter: ha2Sar
    closer: ha2rab
    stronger: ha2wa

    (I added "I want to" to the first two because as you know the normal present tense would have a b, i.e. no "double hamza.")

    As for "I eat," it is baakol. "I want to eat" is biddi aakol.
     
  14. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    In Badawi dialect , hamza is always avoided so that one could pronounce it easily as in : رأس راس -فأس فاس
     
  15. Wadi Hanifa

    Wadi Hanifa Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    صح لسانك
    Personally I hate the "hamza" and avoid it as much as I can.
     
  16. Abu Bishr Senior Member

    Afrikaans, South Africa
    Hi clevermizo

    This refers, in my view, to non-Arabs learning Arabic, but ask native Arabic speakers whether they find classical Arabic just as easy. When I mentioned "economical" I was referring mostly to the natives' use of Arabic. I myself, as a non-native speaker of Arabic, find learning colloquial Arabic harder than MSA or CA precisely because of what you mentioned. However, as regards natives I still maintain that there is a great deal of economy in the way speak colloquial Arabic as opposed to MSA, for one, they don't make use of declension, two, they do not have to have every vowel in its place as regards the rules of morphology, esp. the way the vowel of the second root letter of the verb in the perfect and imperfect, and so on.
     

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