1. Henrik Larsson Senior Member

    Socuéllamos
    Spanish
    ¿Cómo traduciríais la siguiente frase?

    Luego escondió el arma con la cual me golpeó la cabeza

    Tal vez:

    Afterwards, He hid the weapon whereby he hit my head

    ??
     
  2. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    He hid the weapon that he hit me in the head with.
     
  3. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    Casi perfecto Henrik.
     
  4. Henrik Larsson Senior Member

    Socuéllamos
    Spanish
    No acabo de ver porqué "whereby" no cuaja.
     
  5. mylam Senior Member

    Texas
    United States English
    "Whereby" tiene que ver con medios o razones, no con cosas. Es algo antiquado, y no puedo pensar en ejemplos.
     
  6. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    Mylam tiene razón. Es arcaico.
     
  7. sergio11 Senior Member

    Los Angeles and Buenos Aires
    Spanish (lunfardo)
    No cuaja porque "whereby" es un adverbio relativo o interrogativo, y lo que tú necesitas es un pronombre relativo.
     
  8. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Now really Cuchu. Who's going to say, ''he hid the weapon with which he hit my head" ? :) I guess, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.
     
  9. asm Senior Member

    New England, USA
    Mexico, Spanish
    Tengo una duda entre el cual y el que,
    Puede ser "el arma con la que me golpeo..."
    si no, por que?
     
  10. mjscott Senior Member

    "Luego escondió el arma con la cual me golpeó la cabeza"

    Why is it el arma, y la cual?
     
  11. el alabamiano Senior Member

    Alabama
    Actually, it's la arma, but since the stress is on the first a, it takes el or un in the singular. el arma, las armas -- it's the same as water -- el agua las aguas
     
  12. sergio11 Senior Member

    Los Angeles and Buenos Aires
    Spanish (lunfardo)
    "Arma" is feminine; it is "las armas", and it takes a masculine article in the singular because when the word starts with a tonic "a", the final "a" of the article is elided. "Una" becomes "un" and since "la" cannot become "l", it becomes "el". It is the same case as "águila", "agua", "alta" (discharge), "aura", etc. Then it is only natural that it would be "la cual".


    Es lo mismo. Que y cual son sinónimos cuando se usan como pronombres relativos.
     
  13. Chaucer Senior Member

    US inglés/español
    I hope this helps, Edwin:

    Often we tell non-native speakers to read, watch movies, and talk to a variety of people when learning Spanish, and also to look in grammar books. It's a suggestion English natives don't often make to fellow native speakers of English; which is odd since as native speakers, we are, after all, also involved in the process of expanding our own use and knowledge of English.

    Suggestions:
    Read more magazines, different books, involve yourself with different social or professional situations/settings than what you have become accustomed to; it will expand your knowledge and idea of how people speak or write the English language. That should help answer your question and eliminate some of your guessing about the uses of English as a first-language.
     
  14. Misao

    Misao Senior Member

    back in Soria
    Zaragoza(Spain)- Spanish

    Si el problema va a ser el pronombre relativo, reformula la frase :)

    He hit my head with a weapon and afterwards hid it

    O algo así. De todas formas, ¿se podría cambiar "weapon" por "gun"?
     
  15. RussUS Senior Member

    California, USA
    English, United States
    Chaucer, I think Edwin hooked you big time with his subtle comment.
     
  16. Henrik Larsson Senior Member

    Socuéllamos
    Spanish
    Sí, se podría decir "con la que", sólo que esa frase la oí tal y como la había escrito.
     
  17. Henrik Larsson Senior Member

    Socuéllamos
    Spanish
    No, porque en ese contexto, el arma con la que agreden al tío, es una especie de porra, entonces imagino que se podría cambiar por club, cudgel, bludgeon etc
     
  18. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    It has nothing to do with rules, real or imagined. You prefer a different style:

    Yours: I guess, people who believe that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.

    Mine: People who don't like to end a sentence with a preposition, I guess.

    Your point is one I don't care to argue with;)
     
  19. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Chaucer, thanks for the advice on how to improve my knowledge of English. But I'm having a little difficulty with it.

    I know I shouldn't argue with the author of the Canterbury Tales, but I just don't believe that

    "he hid the weapon with which he hit my head"

    is a sentence that any native speaker of English is going to write or say. Do you? Don't you think it much more likely that one would say

    "he hid the weapon that he hit me on the head with."
     
  20. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    saludos,
    Cuchu

    PD- Some people like to hang out their laundry, others their prepositions, and some just like to hang out.
     
  21. sergio11 Senior Member

    Los Angeles and Buenos Aires
    Spanish (lunfardo)
    What a great quote! I loved it.

    Thank you, Cuchuflete.
     
  22. cubaMania Senior Member

    I am a native speaker of English. I would automatically say "with which he hit my head." I hear that type of phrase said both ways--with or without the preposition dangling at the end--and have no quarrel with either style, but what I grew up saying and continue to say is "with which he hit my head." (Well, actually, I am seldom, if ever, hit upon the head, but you know what I mean.)
     
  23. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Wow. I guess you grew up in more erudite surroundings that I did. Live and learn! That's something with which I cannot argue. :) Maybe Chaucer is right, I should get out more.
     
  24. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    I fully agree with CubaMania. Yet I think it has nothing to do with erudition.

    I learned English from reading, from listening to family, and from playing on ballfields and in the street. Nothing surprising there, nor unusual. Perhaps its a regional difference.

    I'm just surprised that you are so incredulous that others may choose a style different than your own. I found your sentence perfectly understanable and in no way objectionable, yet I couldn't imagine constructing it myself.

    saludos,
    Cuchu
     
  25. HeatherR Senior Member

    New Brunswick, Canada
    Canada-English
    I would agree with you Cuchu, however I wouldn't be adverse to using Edwin's translation. Maybe it is regional, as I see you are from Maine, right next door to New Brunswick.

    HeatherR
     
  26. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    Hola Heather,
    Bienvenida. I've said more than once that I see nothing wrong with Edwin's translation. I prefer a different style. Must be the good influences from up the road:)

    un saludo,
    Cuchu
     
  27. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Okay, okay! Perhaps I should have said, ''It appears that our imaginations are symmetrical on the issue."

    Still and all--Maine is not so far away that I cannot understand ''diddly squat''. :)





    ...
     
  28. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    (1) Mr Churchill is said to have made that remark in a witty effort to slam some slave to grammatical "rules". With that sarcastic intent, I wouldn't change a single letter!:)

    (2) It's got diddly squat to do with emotions for me. We have different writing styles. :)
     
  29. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English

    Chucu, I screwed up this silly thread somehow. I think in trying to get the quotes straight I ended up editing one of my previous messages when attempting to reply to your last message. So my reply now appears before your message. :( :mad:
     
  30. cubaMania Senior Member

    We are beating this silly horse to death Edwin, Chuchu and I, but let me add that I too see this particular question as one of style and not of erudition or correctness. Besides geography, ethnic and national background, academic experience, profession, and myriad other variables which affect our speaking styles, I'd suspect age to be a significant influence in this particular case. If we took a survey we might find that the older folks are more likely to say with which he hit my head. But let's not (take a survey, that is.:p )
     
  31. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    Well stated CM. I suspect I am in the Old Curmudgeon category. I used to listen to The Lone Ranger on the Emerson radio when I was a kid. It had a paper wiring diagram on the back.

    Ours was the first family in the neighborhood to get a television...a Dumont. Walking and reading books were considered normal.

    Recently I moved to Maine, where walking and reading books are considered normal.

    Saludos,
    Cuchu
     
  32. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Aah, Cuchu! Maybe that's it. I'm a young man! (Well, at an age where they say, "What can I do for you, young man?". Books? I guess I have read a few. But, hey, I do remember listening to The Lone Ranger, The Shadow, The Green Hornet, Let's Pretend, Lum and Abner, Jack Benny,etc, on a Philco.

    How I missed that ''with which'' thing, I'll never know. :)
     
  33. RussUS Senior Member

    California, USA
    English, United States
    ..to all of you for as a new guy posting before I kinda knew experience and knowledge level of the posters.

    But, having done so, I say the following:

    There ARE grammar rules for such things as not ending sentences with prepositions. What people choose to do, through imagination, creativity, or whatever is not to learn or follow them. That doesn't make them go away.

    I thought Edwin had to know because anybody with the interest to read and post on a board like this would know. If he truly didn't, then I agree in his, (your words Edwin) you should get out more.

    As you all know, for languages such as English without an academy to try to force following of rules, usage eventually changes them. To a degree, the ending of sentences with prepositions could be, I guess effectively a changed rule.

    Anyway, I enjoy the interplay on the forum and appreciate the opportunity to read your thoughts and be entertained and to learn.

    R
     
  34. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    I also said, "Live and learn." They have gone away! The following quote is from The Chicago Manual of Style

    See also:
    Seven Outdated Rules of Grammar
    English Prescriptivists
     
  35. RussUS Senior Member

    California, USA
    English, United States
     
  36. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Huuy! Entonces estas de acuerdo conmigo! Bueno! :D

    Yeah, Russ, if you hang around here longer you will notice that in determining whether or not a phrase in any language is "correct'' or not, native speakers go by how it sounds: se dicen, "Eso me suena bien o eso no me suena nada bien." Es la regla y basta:)
     
  37. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    The ease with which one retreats to well-worn phrases when clobbered by a blunderbuss is akin to the grace with which the miscreant propels the firearm against the cranial shell of the victim.

    My own rule, within or without grammatical constraints, is to avoid whatever sounds awkward. Edwin seems to follow the identical rule.

    We end up with different outcomes. With what alternate results do we end up?? Is the horse defunct or expired, gone, deceased or departed? Has the equine passed on to greener pastures, or is the nag no longer with us?


    Just for fun, we might try to translate our sundry offerings back to Spanish. I have no idea if they would differ.

    Saludos,
    Cuchu
     

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