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Croatian (BCS): Chakavian ekavian dialects - Čakavski ekavski dijalekti

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by frumos, Jan 10, 2007.

  1. frumos New Member

    Bulgaria (Bulgarian, Serbian or Croatian, French, English)
    Hi there,
    it's my first thread on this interesting forum and I'd like to know something more about the Chakavian ekavian dialects... The only thing I found is this hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cakavsko_narje%C4%8Dje (see the map too), but I don't understand how it's possible that people in Istra wich is so far from Serbia (and thus from the main territories where Ekavian is spoken) can speak Ekavian?? And this dialect is Chakavian in the same time?! Can anybody give any examples of chakavian-ekavian words? Unfortunately there isn't much about this subject on the internet...
     
  2. chung Junior Member

    English, ?
    I'm not sure if this helps much, but it seems that ekavski isn't an exclusively Serbian matter. According to this map on the website of Professor Robert Greenberg of the University of North Carolina, there also exists kajkavsko-ekavski along with cakavsko-ekavski.

    http://www.unc.edu/~rdgreenb/dialectmap.gif

    It seems that it's either a fluke of how some Croats started to pronounce yat (ekavski instead of the more frequent ikavski or ijekavski), OR if we assume that ekavski had always been something that originated from Serbian territory, then the pockets of ekavski that we see today reflects the movement and later settling of refugees who were fleeing Turkish occupation in eastern Slavonia or Serbia.
     
  3. Athaulf

    Athaulf Senior Member

    Toronto, Canada
    Croatian/Bosnia, Croatia
    It's almost entirely the former; yat has locally mutated in quite erratic and unpredictable ways. It some places, it has also changed in the centuries since the last wars with Turks, so it doesn't really make sense to infer from today's dialects what changes could have been brought about by the population movements back then.

    As the map to which you gave a link shows, most ekavian dialects of Croatian are those spoken in the northwestern kajkavian areas, which tend to be extremely different from any dialect of Serbian (and from the standard Croatian too, for that matter). In Slovenian, what was once yat is also written and pronounced the "ekavian" way.
     
  4. frumos New Member

    Bulgaria (Bulgarian, Serbian or Croatian, French, English)
    Thank you for your answers!
    As for the mutation of yat vowel, indeed it has mutated differently in all slavic languages. I don't know whether you know, but in Bulgarian for instance, just like in the former Serbo-Croatian language, we have also two equivalents of yat : in western Bulgaria it has transformed into an e, just like in serbian, so words are pronounced this way : bel (white), dedo (grandpa), mleko (milk). In eastern Bulgaria however, it has transformed into a я (ja) so the same words would sound this way : bjal, djado, mljako. This is in fact the "official" pronunciation of the words, and even in western Bulgaria most of people pronounce bjal. The bel-form is only used in the everyday language, and nobody writes this word that way.
    Here you can find a map for more information upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Bgmap_yat.png .
     
  5. !netko! Junior Member

    Croatian, Croatia
    Hi, frumos

    Chakavian Ekavian has nothing to do with Serbian Ekavian. The pronunciation of yat is completely different in Chakavian ekavian. In Shtokavian Ekavian, "e" is either long or short. In Shtokavian Ikavian, "i" is either long or short. They taught us in school to think of whether a word has a long or short "i" in it in Shtokavian Ikavian if we weren't sure about every Croatian school kid's nightmare: ije/je. It can also be sone by thinking about the "e" in Shtokavian Ekavian.

    But in Chakavian, the yat is always short. You can't determine if, for example, the standard Croatian word "mlijeko" has "ije" or "je" in it by thinking about the pronunciation of the Chakavian word mliko/mleko. That's because it's pronounced with the accent on the last syllable and the first syllable pronounced rapidly, kind of like: mlikoo/mlekoo. In both Ekavian Shtokavian and Ikavian Shtokavian the yat would be long: mliiko/mleeko.

    So the Chakavian Ikavian yat isn't the same as the Shtokavian Ikavian yat and the Chakavian Ekavian yat isn't the same as Shtokavian Ekavian yat. All are separate realisations of yat in their own right.
    At least that's the case with the Chakavian speeches from where I grew up.

    Kajkavian I know more or less nothing about.


    Hope that helps :)

    Btw, frumos, I didn't know that about Bulgarian. Interesting. So would it be ekavian and jakavian Bulgarian then?
     
  6. frumos New Member

    Bulgaria (Bulgarian, Serbian or Croatian, French, English)
    Very interesting! That means that chakavian "E" is more or less pronounced the same way as in Bulgarian : in fact in standard Bulgarian (based on eastern dialects), the yat vowel is pronounced as "ja" if accentuated, and as an "e" if not. That's why some words can be pronounced and even written in two different ways. Fore example milk can be pronounced and written either as mljAko (you have then to stress the first syllable) or mlekO (the accent is on the final o, just like in chakavian). But this rule is strictly respected only in eastern Bulgaria - in the west you'll nearly always hear mlEko (with a stressed E). In standard Bulgarian, we don't make any difference between short and long vowels.

    Yeah, we could say that. If I understand, the yat will have the following equivalents from west to east :
    ADRIATIC : e - i - ije - i - e - ja : BLACK SEA
    By the way, in some villages in eastern Bulgaria, the "E" is so softened, that it could remind us of ikavian... You'll for example hear sirini for sirene (cheese), but this has nothing to do with the yat vowel mutation. :D
     
  7. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
  8. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    Here is some example:
    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]North Čakavian (island of Krk)

    Va Staroj Baški moji su koreni. To je selo na kraj ižule. Selo va ko je prvo prišal telefon leh voda – vode još ni.

    Moj ded, koga su zvali Jobo i Baron imel je velo ufanje vame kad me je onput poslal samu z tovaron po vodu. Tovar se je zval Moro. Ded mi ga je lipo parićal: stavil mu je sedlo i obisil po njemu (kako i danas se domišljan) sive plastične kante zi črjeni čepi i poslal Mora i mene po vodu Pod Čižnu. Napisala san Mora i mene aš, Moro je bolje znal kadi je Pod Čižna. Bila je to plaža, a na njenon početku bil je izvor i špina i ljudi su tamo hodeli po vodu.

    Jahala san Mora, a on me je peljal. Bilo je to sred leta pa je tovar bil žajan. Kad je naćuhnul da smo blizu, počel je teć kako munjen, a ja san umrla od straha. Kako je Stara Baška uz brdo, prema moru se put kaluje strmo zdolu i za prit do vode rabilo je pasat škale. Moro jih ni pasal nego preletil skupa z manu na škini – kako mi srce ni fermalo, ne znan. Svakako, do vode san arivala z Moron. Otvorila san špinu i on se je napil. ,Dokle san ja punila četire kante, Moro je adoćal travicu i partil se brstit i preživat. Mene ni bendal ni pet posto. I ča!? Tovar kako tovar – delal je po svoju; a ja san mogla samo poć hodeć doma bez Mora i bez vode i čut od deda kapeladu kako nisan za niš kad ni jednomu tovaru ne znan zapovidat.

    To je bilo moje iskustvo z Moron. Brižan tovar ni dobro finil. Kašnje su ga niki od dešpeta obisili – nebogi Moro. Ne domišljan se više ničega, samo da je ded i suze prolil za tin tovaron.


    Standard Croatian
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] U Staroj su Baški moji korijeni. To je selo na kraju otoka. Selo u koje je prije došao telefon nego voda – vode još nema.

    Moj djed, koga su zvali Jobo i Baron imao je veliko povjerenje u mene kad me je jednom poslao samu s magarcem po vodu. Magarac se je zvao Moro. Djed mi ga je lijepo pripremio: stavio mu je sedlo i objesio po njemu (kako se i danas sjećam) sive plastične kante s crvenim čepovima i poslao Mora i mene po vodu Pod Čižnu. Napisala sam Mora i mene jer je Moro bolje znao gdje je Pod Čižna. Bila je to plaža, a na njenom početku bio je izvor i slavina i ljudi su tamo odlazili po vodu.

    Jahala sam Mora, a on me je vodio. Bilo je to usred ljeta pa je magarac bio žedan. Kad je osjetio da smo blizu, počeo je trčati kao lud, a ja sam umrla od straha. Kako je Stara Baška u brdu, prema moru se put spušta strmo nadolje i da bi se došlo do vode trebalo je proći stube. Moro ih nije prošao nego preletio skupa sa mnom na leđima – kako mi srce nije stalo, ne znam. U svakom slučaju, do vode sam stigla s Morom. Otvorila sam slavinu i on se je napio. Dok sam ja punila četiri kante, Moro je spazio travu i pošao brstiti i preživati. Na mene nije obraćao pažnju ni pet posto. I što!? Magarac kao magarac – radio je po svojemu; a ja sam mogla samo poći pješice doma bez Mora i bez vode i čuti od djeda jezikovu juhu kako nisam nizašto kad ni jednomu magarcu ne znam zapovjedati.

    To je bilo moje iskustvo s Morom. Jadan magarac nije dobro završio. Kasnije su ga neki klipani objesili – siroti Moro. Ne sjećam se više ničega, samo da je djed i suze prolio za tim magarcem.
    [/FONT]
     
  9. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    First of all you gotta distinguish:
    In Croatian there are dialects(narječja)-
    and yat reflex that appears differently

    So we have combinations:
    Štokavsko-ijekavski
    Štokavsko-ikavski
    Štokavsko-ekavski

    Čakavsko-ekavski
    Čakavsko-ikavski
    Čakavsko-ikavsko-ijekavski(yat reflex is random Ex. belo mliko, Lipo dete itd.)
    Čakavsko-ijekavski

    kajkavski-(exclusively!!) ekavski


    Croatian speakers of ekavski live on the territorry where mostly had not traditional contact with Serbs. Except in Eastern Slavonia.
     
  10. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    In Serbia until 1st half of the 19th century lived big part of population who spoke ijekavski.
    You will see the remainings of ijekavski in the names of the places, surnames and other things in Serbia.
    Serbian-ekavski was originally spoken only in regions Vojvodina and Šumadija.

    Serbian linguist V.S. Karadžić made the standard of Serbian language based on ijekavski . That's because he was from Herecegovina where Serbs still today spoke ijekavski, as well as in the rest of the BiH.
     
  11. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    And last ,but not the least :)
    Čakavski is spoken only by Croats...

    No Serbs speak Čakavski(natively)
    So it makes no sense the title:
    Serbian/Croatian: Chakavian ekavian dialects - Čakavski ekavski dijalekti
     
  12. Athaulf

    Athaulf Senior Member

    Toronto, Canada
    Croatian/Bosnia, Croatia
    That's not true. There are places where local kajkavian dialects are ikavian and ijekavian. Observe the map to which Chunk gave a link above.
     
  13. sesna New Member

    UK
    Hello to all interested in 'cakavski'. Apparently I am not allowed to send URL's yet, but if you have time, go on the search engine and type in Drago Gervais (who is my favourite chakavian poet) and you'll find his biography and works under the website istrianet.org. There is also a link to vocabulary translating all unusual words. I was born in that same town, Opatija, in Istria and although I do not speak chakavian perfectly, I do understand most of it and lots of my friends from Opatija speak chakavian (on daily basis). My parents originally come from Serbia and I travelled a lot with my parents throughout the ex-Yugoslavia and I have never come across anyone that speaks chakavian, except Croats.

    I adore 'cakavski' and hopefully we can keep it going.
     
  14. !netko! Junior Member

    Croatian, Croatia
    I agree, Drago Gervais was a great poet...

    I also adore čakavski and hope it keeps going. But unfortunarely it seems to be dying out... Less and less people are speaking it fro what I can see....
     
  15. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    Split from here.
    First of all :there ar no Slavs. We can talk only about slavophones.

    Moderator note: A new thread was created to pursue this argument.



    That is true if you talk only about standard Croatian- štokavski
    On the other hand čakavski is very hard to understand to anybody from Serbia, B&H , Montenegro...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect

    As well as kajkavski (kaykavian).
    http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavski

    Btw, kajkavski in fact is much closer to Slovene that to the standard Croatian.
    Ex. during yugoslavia there was a tv- serial “Gruntovčani” that was in kaykavian. it was understood very well by Slovens, but very badly by Croats from non-kaykavian speaking regions.
     
  16. beclija Senior Member

    vienna
    Boarisch, Österreich (Austria)
    Allow me to note that where there are differences in actual vocabulary rather than form, Croatian Štokavian standard often allows more than one option, i.e. you can to some extent make the Standard Croatian text look more like the Čakavian or the Kajkavian one by picking among two (near) synonyms, e.g. jedinica/postrojba, ob(a)vezan/neizostavan etc.
     
  17. Kolan Senior Member

    Montréal (Québec)
    Russian (CCCP)
    OK, speaking only Russian (and understanding most of Ukrainian and Belorussian, some Bulgarian), I can see only a very little written difference between 3 Croatian dialects (much less than between Russian and Belorussian), and would easily guess the meanings of the words I do not recognize.
     
  18. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    I should make the audio example perhaps.
    For an illustrations.
    :)
    Pronounciation is quite different.



    If we talk about grammar , southern čakavian dialects are close to štokavian.
    On the other hand, in the north, differences are huge. For instance, the female noun declension (first standard, then northern čakavian):

    N žena - žena
    G žene - ženi
    D ženi - žene
    A ženu - ženu
    V ženo! - ženo!
    L o ženi - o žene
    I sa ženom - zi ženun

    n žene - ženi
    g ženâ - žen
    d ženama - ženan
    a žene - žene
    v žene! - žene!
    l o ženama - o ženah
    i sa ženama - zi ženami

    (of course, the stress is also different, in standard it's ŽEna, while in čakavian it's žeNA)
     
  19. el_tigre Senior Member

    Orebić
    Croatian(štokavski+čakavski)
    Pater Noster

    Standard Croatian

    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Oče naš,
    koji jesi na nebesima,
    sveti se ime tvoje,
    dođi kraljevstvo tvoje,
    budi volja tvoja,
    kako na nebu tako i na zemlji.

    Kruh naš svagdanji daj nam danas,
    i otpusti nama duge naše,
    kako i mi otpuštamo dužnicima našim,
    i ne uvedi nas u napast,
    nego izbavi nas od zla.
    Amen.
    [/FONT]


    Insular chakavian

    [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Elatjaće
    kyeš vaneh nebah,
    senay elamy urudba tvoja,
    nay ariva una carmada tvoja
    tar naybi utemba tvoja koti va nebah
    osce vaneh tlah.
    Sey noas pohlib seydni naydas nami danaske
    tarnay laškas nami une darzi nase
    koti mye laškamo darznikon našin,
    osce nayne pejas noas vane uocani,
    lehnay bukšas noas ud seyh hudobih.
    Vasye vykoj vykov,
    Amen.
    [/FONT]
     
  20. bovcic New Member

    Chicago IL USA
    English
    Here is some cakovsi dialect which I remember from my childhood. The region is the mainland leading to the island Krk. Since my keyboard is limited, it doesnt contain the necessary "Kvake" such as the soft ' or the hard v above the words.


    Kad san bil djecak, ja i otac smo skupa puno puta prosetali na cestu ka gre doli kraj more. Smo slucajno utaknuli na ovu cestu otacin prijatelj, jedan covik kij sej znal “stari Ivica.” Un je bil naj stariji covik na tu cestu. Mislin da je Ivica bil okol 90 ili 95 leta star. Kad smo najzad na more dosli smo bili tepli i lacni, pa otac je prodilil meni malo sira i kruh. Taj sir je vavik bil jak pa smo brzo nasli jednu sternu i puno vode popili. Na more smo gljedali ribari i kako su lovili ribe. Otac je gljedal ako su ti ribari slucajno imeli ribe za prodat. Ako su, otac je nabiral dve ili tri ribe za nosit nazad doma.

    Bovcic
     

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