dem "bedenklichen" Original zustimmen

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hallo!

    "Im Jahre 1821 beschäftigt sich Goethe lebhaft mit Lucretius, den sein Freund Knebel übersetzt hatte. Goethe will das Buch durch eine Anzeige aus seiner Feder fördern und hält es für nützlich, den Atheismus und den Glauben an ein Aufhören, trotzdem er darin dem »bedenklichen« Original zustimmte, scherzhaft zu behandeln. Schon in einem Briefe vom 18. Februar kündigt er die kluge Absicht an, »das leidenschaftliche Leugnen der Unsterblichkeit ins Komische zu spielen«." (Mauthner)






    Und jetzt, in dem selben Kontext, vermute ich , wie sollte ich das Wort "bedenklich" verstehen?

    Ich habe dabei viele - und verschiedene! - Vorschläge, wie z.B. Engl. "serious", "grave", but also "weighty", as well as "scrupulous", "critic", and finally also "polemical"... Es ist mir schwierig, nur eine von diesen Bedeutugen auszuwählen... :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  2. Resa Reader Senior Member

    I read it more as "questionable". < ... > :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  3. Swir

    Swir Junior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I thought "bedenklich" meant "meditative" - the one who meditates or put something in question (not that which one puts in question...)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  4. Robocop Senior Member

    Central Switzerland
    (Swiss) German
    Mit der Aussage "Goethe will das Buch (seines Freundes Knebel) durch eine Anzeige aus seiner Feder fördern und hält es für nützlich, den Atheismus und den Glauben an ein Aufhören [...] scherzhaft zu behandeln" komme ich klar, aber der Einschub "trotzdem [?] er [Goethe??] darin [im Atheismus und im Glauben an ein Aufhören?] dem »bedenklichen« Original [welchem Original?] zustimmte" bleibt mir unverständlich.
     
  5. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    Deutschland (Hamburg)
    German/Germany
    Das Wort bedenklich bedeutet hier eigentlich fragwürdig, zweifelhaft, aber durch die Anführungszeichen mag es sein, dass der Autor andeuten will, dass es nur scheinbar fragwürdig ist, also in der Öffentlichkeit als fragwürdig wahrgenommen wird, tatsächlich aber nicht fragwürdig ist. Es mag zudem sein, dass der Autor mit der wortwörtlichen Ableitung von "etwas bedenken" spielt und das Gegenteil meint, also bedacht, gedankenvoll. Ich finde den Text insgesamt sehr altmodisch und für heutige Ohren nicht unmittelbar verständlich, so dass ich nicht entscheiden kann, was wirklich gemeint ist.

    Folgende Inhalte sind entscheidend:

    + Goethe stimmt dem Original zu (also dass es keine Unsterblichkeit gibt).
    + Goethe behandelt in seiner Anzeige den Atheismus trotzdem scherzhaft.
    + Das Original ist zumindest in der öffentlichen Wahrnehmung "bedenklich / fragwürdig".
     
  6. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    So wie ich es sehe: "trotzdem [trotzdem er - Goethe - den Atheismus und den Glauben an ein Aufhören scherzhaft zu behandeln mag] er [Goethe] darin [im Atheismus und im Glauben an ein Aufhören] dem "bedenklichen" Original [das Buch von Lucretius] zustimmte."
     
  7. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Ich bin in ganz Übereinstimmung mit dir, Kajjo.

    Nun, "fragwürdig" meint auch (Engl.) "polemical", "controversial", "problematic" - findest du auch? Ich denke, "problematic" wäre eine gute Übersetzung...
     
  8. Robocop Senior Member

    Central Switzerland
    (Swiss) German
    I disagree on "problematic" (on all three suggestions, actually) and I'd rather go for something like questionable, doubtful, dubious, etc.
     
  9. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    Deutschland (Hamburg)
    German/Germany
    Hm, I prefer "questionable", because it is closest in meaning with all the right connotations. "Controversial" fits quite well, too, but is not the same (and German "kontrovers" does exist, if that would have been meant).

    "Problematic" has a different focus (causing problems, consequences) than "questionable" (controversial, not proven to be true or factual). "Polemical" is somewhat altogether different in my opinion, i.e. a special nature of argumentation and discussion (and we don't know whether the text is polemical in this sense).
     
  10. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    Is Mautner a believer? If so, he means disturbing. If not, he means controversial---likely to cause problems if acknowledged.
     
  11. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hi exgerman,
    I don't think that when Mauthner says "bedenklich" he is by any means giving his own opinion about the text at issue. He is rather giving Goethe's opinion. In the whole paragraph, actually, he's talking only about Goethe's opinion. Goethe was writting about Lucretius, and although he had an apparentely different opinion from his book, he actually had the same opinion (about immortality), which is: he doesn't believe in immortality. So, only between " " the text was "polemic" for Goethe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  12. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I just have to point something out here: in the language into wich I'm translating the text, Portuguese, the equivalent for Engl. "problematic", which is "problemático", means precisely: something that arises questions, that makes you think, that might contain some contradictions, that is polemical, and, sometimes, can also be doubtful... So, my point is: such a word (Portuguese "problemático") can save/preserve many possible meanings, which is a good thing when the original itself is not completely clear.
    Anyway, I'm not convinced that Mauthner uses "bedenklich" here as a synonym for "doubtful". He referes to Goethe's view of Lucretius' text, and Goethe's view of Lucretius text is not that of something dubious or doubtful... Rather: Goethe has problems with Lucretius' text in the sense that it arises questions for him... It is, in this sense, polemical...

    I'd like to know if you understand my interpretation and what do you think of this point of view. I appreciate!
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  13. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    It would be the case to know if at Mauthner's time the word "kontrovers" was already available. (I have no idea about that!)

    As I said to exgerman, I am not convinced that Mauthner would say that Goethe finds Lucretius' text "zweifelhaft". I don't think that when Mauthner says "bedenklich" he is by any means giving his own opinion about the text at issue. He is rather giving Goethe's opinion. In the whole paragraph, actually, he's talking only about Goethe's opinion. Goethe was writting about Lucretius, and although he had an apparentely different opinion from his book, he actually had the same opinion (about immortality), which is: he doesn't believe in immortality. So, only between " " the text was "polemic" for Goethe.

    And, as I said to Robocop, I just have to point something out here: in the language into wich I'm translating the text, Portuguese, the equivalent for Engl. "problematic", which is "problemático", means precisely: something that arises questions, that makes you think, that might contain some contradictions, that is polemical, and, sometimes, can also be doubtful... So, my point is: such a word (Portuguese "problemático") can save/preserve many possible meanings, which is a good thing when the original itself is not completely clear.
    Anyway, I'm not convinced that Mauthner uses "bedenklich" here as a synonym for "doubtful". He referes to Goethe's view of Lucretius' text, and Goethe's view of Lucretius text is not that of something dubious or doubtful... Rather: Goethe has problems with Lucretius' text in the sense that it arises questions for him... It is, in this sense, polemical...

    I don't know if my point of view is understandable! Anyway, I'd like to know what you think of it. Thanks.
     
  14. Robocop Senior Member

    Central Switzerland
    (Swiss) German
    I also have considered that "bedenklich" could have had a different (even contrasting) meaning (similar to "bedenkenswert") in the remote past. However, I have now found a dated text which seems to confirm that "bedenklich" ever since had a connotation of doubt. Moreover, I have come to think that Mauthner put the quotation marks to indicate that Goethe himself had judged the original (by Lucretius) as "bedenklich".

    Aus Zeno.org
     
  15. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    As I said earlier... Mauthner is talking about Goethe's opinion on Lucretius' book.
    About "bedenklich", you think it can mean, in this context, a severity or deepness of thought which Goethe assigns to Lucretius' book? I did thought of that... It would make sense.
     
  16. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I have been wondering a lot, and I came to a different idea... Well, as in Robocop's example - Bach aber war bedenklich [d.h. Bach hatte also Zweifel bzw. Bedenken] - couldn't it be the case that Lucretius' text is found by Goethe to be a bedenklich text, that is to say, Lucretius (or his text, because his text reflected his thinking) himself hatte Zweifel bzw Bedenken (about the question of immortality), rather than he himself (or his text) war zweifelhaft? I have to say, it makes much more sense than any other of our here posed possibilities... It makes, actually, a lot of sense. There would be, in this case, a contrast between the humorous way how Goethe, in his note to Lucretius' text, handled the question of immortality, and the "bedenklich" (that is to say: grave, meditative, thoughtfull) way how Lucretius himself handled the issue in his Original.
    I just have to check with you - native - guys, if I might be correct in thinking that bedenklich can have this meaning.
    I appreciate again your attention and help.
    :)
     
  17. Schlabberlatz Senior Member

    German - Germany
    Sounds far-fetched to me. I'd say stay with "questionable". As has been mentioned before in this thread, the quotation marks around the word could mean that Goethe, or Mauthner, plays with a double meaning of "bedenklich", which corresponds with Goethe's double opinion about Lucretius's work: he treats it as questionable in his advertisement, but in private he shares L's views, he thinks one should think about L's views, in other words he is of the opinion that they are good food for thought.
     
  18. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I understand that it sounds far-fetched to you. But I'm reading the whole text (http://www.zeno.org/Mauthner-1923/A/Unsterblichkeit+der+Seele) and I would never say that Goethe or Mauthner are questioning Lucretius. Goethe wants to promote the book. And he agrees with Lucretius' thought. "Questionable" just doesn't fit in the context... It has no relation with whatever else the author (or Goethe) says... On the opposite, the fact that Goethe writes a note on Lucretius book, and the note treats the theme of the book (death and immortality) in a joking way, contrasts with the serious way how Lucretius deals with it. In this sense, it makes a lot of sense that bedenklich would mean "thoughtfull", "meditative", etc...
    P.S.: Sorry about my errors (English)
     
  19. Schlabberlatz Senior Member

    German - Germany
    Looking at the whole text I'd say you're probably right. Not a 100 per cent sure, though.
    I think you'd have to find a word that expresses what I suggested above: Goethe is probably of the opinion that people should think about L's views, to take them into consideration, to take them into account, something like that.
     
  20. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    Es ist schwierig, weil es eine hohe Sprachebene ist, die ältere Sprachstände bewahrt und mit ihnen spielt.
    Grimm gibt einige Beispiele, bei denen ich nicht denke, dass "bedenklich" dem heutigen Gebrauch entspricht: http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB?lemma=bedenklich

    Im vorliegenden Fall, kann es durchaus auch "des Bedenkens wert" bedeuten, oder "dem Original, dem ich meine Gedanken gerade gewidmet habe".
    In deutsch ist es nicht eindeutig, wenn man von der heutigen Sprache absieht, in der es oft "fragwürdig" heißt.
    Man kann hier eventuell auch von einem Sprachspiel ausgehen.
     
  21. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Right. Are you thinking in something like "denkwürdig", or "bedenkenswert", as Robocop earlier and now Hutschi pointed out? I think it could be a good option, because it doesn't exclude the meaning of "meditative" anyway.
     
  22. Schlabberlatz Senior Member

    German - Germany
    "Denkwürdig" is, as far as I can tell, mostly used to say that something is worth to be remembered, as for example in "ein denkwürdiger Tag". "Bedenkenswert" - yes. "Des Bedenkens wert" sounds a bit more ceremonial, but I'd tend to prefer it in this case. Other possibilities: "beachtenswert" or, maybe, "anerkennenswert".
     

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