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der "Bild"-Zeitung

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Dupon, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. Dupon Senior Member

    Chinese
    Die CDU-Vorsitzende lasse sich erstaunlich viel Zeit für die Sondierungen, sagte Niedersachsens Ministerpräsident Stephan Weil, SPD, der "Bild"-Zeitung.

    what it the grammar function of "der "Bild"-Zeitung"? Is it the object of "sagte"? But why it can be in the final position?
    And another little question is how to understand "lasse sich erstaunlich" here? Does it mean "someone was shocked"?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Dan2

    Dan2 Senior Member

    US
    US English
    1. ... die Sondierungen (blah blah blah) der "Bild"-Zeitung (genitive).

    2. Not (lasse sich erstaunlich) (viel Zeit) but (lasse sich) (erstaunlich viel Zeit)

    Does that help?
     
  3. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    1. I would bet that der "Bild"-Zeitung is dative and object, until I saw Dan's reply. How would someone formulate the sentence so that der Bild-Zeitung be object?
    2. I agree with Dan. I think also that it is a "Wunschsatz", and hence the Konjuktiv 1. http://www.canoo.net/services/OnlineGrammar/Satz/Satzart/Wunsch.html
     
  4. Dan2

    Dan2 Senior Member

    US
    US English
    I may have been led astray by the commas. Compare:
    1. ...für die Sondierungen, sagte Weil, der "Bild"-Zeitung
    2. ...für die Sondierungen, sagte Weil der "Bild"-Zeitung

    In (1) I would interpret the phrase as genitive and in (2) as dative. But in the OP sentence, the comma is necessary for another reason and doesn't force the genitive reading. Thanks, Perseas.
     
  5. ablativ Senior Member

    German(y)
    It's not a Wunschsatz, it's reported speech, that's why Konjunktiv 1 has to be used.
    (Dan2)

    In these sentences, the second comma (#1) would be unnecessary and therefore wrong. Sentence 2 would be correct.
    The commas before and after SPD are necessary due to the apposition SPD which means Stephan Weil is a member of this political party.
    (Dupon)

    ... lasse sich erstaunlich viel Zeit means Stephan Weil is surprised how long it takes.

    You could rephrase the sentence:

    Der Ministerpräsident Stephan Weil (SPD) sagte der "Bild"-Zeitung, dass sich die CDU-Vorsitzende (Angela Merkel) erstaunlich viel Zeit für die Sondierungen lasse.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  6. Dan2

    Dan2 Senior Member

    US
    US English
    I understand that. Backing up...

    English is more insistent than German on the use of quotation marks. The "ambiguity" I was suggesting is clearer in English:
    "I'm skeptical of polls", said Smith, "in the New York Times". (He distrusts NY Times-reported polls)
    vs
    "I'm skeptical of polls", said Smith in the New York Times. (His distrust was expressed in the NY Times)

    Without the quotation marks, all we have for disambiguation is the comma:
    I'm skeptical of polls, said Smith, in the New York Times.
    vs
    I'm skeptical of polls, said Smith in the New York Times.

    I'd bet you can construct similar pairs, in German, where the comma is decisive. That's what I was trying to do, perhaps unsuccessfully, with
    1. ...für die Sondierungen, sagte Weil, der "Bild"-Zeitung (Genitiv) (eingeschobenes "sagte Weil")
    2. ...für die Sondierungen, sagte Weil der "Bild"-Zeitung (Dative)

    But if there is another reason to use a comma, for ex. because there's an apposition, it becomes impossible to disambiguate the two readings:
    I'm skeptical of polls, said Weil, SPD, in the New York Times. (Can be read either way)

    (Just clarifying what I meant, not disagreeing with the interpretation of the sentence.)
     
  7. ablativ Senior Member

    German(y)
    The "reale Wunschsatz" in "Konjunktiv I" is extremely rarely used in the German language and limited to a handfull of set expressions. (See your mentioned canoo-site). Konj.1 has never been a rhetorical device for "Wunschsätze" in general.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  8. ablativ Senior Member

    German(y)
    Very interesting aspects, indeed. But we are dealing with reported speech in our origninal sentence. I think that makes the main difference besides some other stylistic aspects.

    But one more question about quotation marks in written English (if I'm allowed):

    I often see sentences like "I'm skeptical of polls", said Smith, "in the New York Times." instead of ​"... New York Times".

    Is this a simple mistake or is there a reason behind it?

    And one more thing: We are not talking about Sondierungen der Bildzeitung (Gen.). Die Bildzeitung sondiert nicht, sondern Frau Dr. Merkel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  9. Demiurg

    Demiurg Senior Member

    Germany
    German
    I think the regular word order makes it easier to understand:

    Niedersachsens Ministerpräsident Stephan Weil (SPD) sagte der "Bild"-Zeitung, die CDU-Vorsitzende lasse sich erstaunlich viel Zeit für die Sondierungen,

    Niedersachsens Ministerpräsident Stephan Weil (SPD) sagte der "Bild"-Zeitung: "Die CDU-Vorsitzende lässt sich erstaunlich viel Zeit für die Sondierungen".
     
  10. Dan2

    Dan2 Senior Member

    US
    US English
    You're right to question what I wrote. The convention we were taught in school is to place periods and commas inside of quotes, even if illogical (question marks follow logic). (The British convention may be different.) I consciously try to follow logic rather than the convention in this particular instance, hoping to wear the prescriptivists down...
    Thank you. I was misled by the French word "sondage", which is more familiar to me than "Sondierung"; "sondages" are typically done by news organzations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  11. ablativ Senior Member

    German(y)
    Thank you for your explanation.
     
  12. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Since commas are much more important in German and follow quite strict rules, the belittling "all we have" would not be appropriate.
    German is full of such cases. The most famous example (we lean that in school to demonstrate how important commas are) is
    Der Lehrer sagte, der Schüler sei ein Esel.
    Der Lehrer, sagte der Schüler, sei ein Esel.

    But your sentence one is simple too far fetched. Nobody would do the insertion at that place.
     
  13. Dupon Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thanks much for your answer!

    In "..., dass sich die CDU-Vorsitzende (Angela Merkel) erstaunlich viel Zeit für die Sondierungen lasse.",
    Does this litteraly mean: "die CDU-Vorsitzende (Angela Merkel)" leaves herself surprisingly much time for the exploratory talks?
    What is the grammar function of "viel Zeit", is it the Akk. object of the verb "lasse" and "sich" is the Dat. object?

    Thanks again!

     
  14. ablativ Senior Member

    German(y)
    It's a set expression, an idiom: sich Zeit lassen, sich Zeit nehmen.

    "Sich Zeit lassen": Litterally speaking something like "to allow yourself to take your time" ("surprisingly much time for the exploratory talks")

    Jemandem (dative) Zeit (acc.) lassen

    Sich (dativus commodi) Zeit lassen/nehmen
     
  15. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    I suppose that everything would have been much clearer with 'direkte' instead of 'indirecte Rede', and the addition of 'zu': ,,sie laesst sich ...viel Zeit'', sagte Weil ZU der Bild-Zeitung.
    Am I right ?
     
  16. dubitans Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria
    German - Austria
    "zu der Bild-Zeitung" would not be idiomatic.
    "zur Bild-Zeitung" and "zu Bild" would be. The newspaper would thus have been given more importance in the context of the sentence than was intended by the author: Herr Weil sagte es zur Bild-Zeitung/zu Bild - nicht zu einer anderen Zeitung/einem anderen Medium.
     
  17. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    Hi Dubitans
    Yours is a very 'fine' remark, as usual. Of 'nicht zu einer anderen Zeitung' I would not have thought in a lifetime. Many thanks.
     
  18. Dan2

    Dan2 Senior Member

    US
    US English
    With all the other discussion, I don't think this question was ever addressed.

    In first position in this sentence we find not the subject but the long quotation ("Die ... Sondierungen"). The verb, "sagte" is in second position, as it should be. In such cases the subject is typically in third position, as it is here (subject = "Niedersachsens Ministerpräsident Stephan Weil, SPD"). That leaves only the dative object of "sagte", "der Bild-Zeitung". I'm curious why you're surprised to find it at the end.

    (It's true that a dative pronoun can come before the subject:
    Die CDU-Vorsitzende lasse sich erstaunlich viel Zeit für die Sondierungen, sagte mir ​Niedersachsens Ministerpräsident Stephan Weil.)

    EDIT: Thank you for the correction, dubitans!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013

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