1. The WordReference Forums have moved to new forum software. (Details)

derrame pulmonar

Discussion in 'Medical Terminology' started by tillymarigold, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. tillymarigold Senior Member

    US
    US/English
    ¿Qué es un derrame pulmonar? Sé lo que es un derrame cerebral, pero...

    Esta es la oración: ... es el único sostén de mi madre la señora XXXXX la cual cuenta con 89 años de vida la cual está enferma tiene cáncer pulmonar un derrame pulmonar y ocupa oxígeno las 24 horas...

    Mi intento: he is the only support for my mother Mrs. XXXXX who is 89 years old [and] who is sick she has lung cancer ??? and is on oxygen 24 hours a day...
     
  2. ClaudioMEDUC New Member

    Conozco el término derrame pleural, que es cuando hay líquido entre las dos capas de la pleura que son las membranas que recubren el pulmón.
    Lo otro puede ser un edema pulmonar, cuando hay líquido dentro del pulmón mismo.

    ahhh, perdón,
    bueno traducido:
    Derrame pleural= Pleural Effusion
    Edema pulmonar= pulmonary edema
     
  3. Dr J

    Dr J Senior Member

    Colombia
    Español, Colombia
    Hola.
    Concuerdo con la descripción que hace ClaudioMEDUC, pero no se la traducción.
     
  4. Sr. Moose

    Sr. Moose Senior Member

    Frostbite Falls, Alces and English
    Sería pulmonary hemorrhaging, o sea, bleeding from the lung.
     
  5. tillymarigold Senior Member

    US
    US/English
    Para mí el problema es que uno no puede padecer de manera permanente de un pulmonary hemorrhage o sea que uno lo sufre y o lo sanan cuanto antes o uno muere. No es posible que una persona padezca de eso de manera continua y permanente, ¿o sí?

    Sé que esa sería la traducción literal pero para mí no tiene sentido.
     
  6. Sr. Moose

    Sr. Moose Senior Member

    Frostbite Falls, Alces and English
    Hi Tilly

    A hemorrhage can be tiny, too. For instance, a slight nose bleed, a broken blood vessel in the eye, or petechiae on the surface of the skin are all examples of hemorrhaging.

     
  7. ERASMO_GALENO Senior Member

    Lima limón
    Perú, Español
    Hola,

    El cáncer pulmonar (lung cancer) puede presentar derrame pleural (pleural effusion) asociado. Me inclinaría por esa opción.

    Atentamente,

    Erasmo.
     
  8. Sr. Moose

    Sr. Moose Senior Member

    Frostbite Falls, Alces and English
    Hi tillymarigold

    Your example sentence does not say 'derrame pleural' (of the pleural sac), but rather "derrame pulmonar" (of the lung itself). Although the sentence does tell us that she requires oxygen, it makes no mention of the use of a chest tube, which would be very conspicuous and worthy of remark, considering that it would be connected to a negative air pressure canister necessary to keep her lung from collapsing if her condition—and there is absolutely no evidence presented as such in the statement—were truly limited to the leakage of serous fluids into the pleural cavity surrounding the lung.

    No, sadly, if we avoid conjecture and stick faithfully to the information provided in your example sentence (lo que es la meta de verdad en traducir, ¿no?), we're left with the straightforward understanding that the lesion is bleeding into the lung itself. Unless in the narrative there exists additional information that proves the facts to be otherwise (la frase reza como una entrevista), logic and experience do allow us at this point to follow our intuition: she has intermittently been coughing up a very bright red and frothy mixture of blood and mucoserous fluids.

    “. . . he is the only means of support for my mother, Mrs. _______, who is 89 years old, and who is ill. She has lung cancer, pulmonary hemorrhaging (or, bleeding), and is on oxygen 24 hours a day . . . .”

    Qué le vaya bien, tilly
    Bullwinkle
     
  9. fsabroso

    fsabroso Moderadiólogo

    South Texas
    Perú / Castellano
    Hola,

    Muy descriptiva y correcta la opinion de Mr Moose, sin embargo me inclino por la opción de ClaudioMeduc
    :tick:
    ya que "derrame pulmonar" es una manera mas común de nombrar por personas que no estan acostumbradas a terminos médicos, como "pleural".

    Esto se llama "hemothorax", y de ser así si le colocarían un "chest tube", para drenar la sangre que se encuentra dentro y evitar colapso pulmonar, el procedimiento se llama toracocentesis, "thoracocentesis".

    Si te refieres, a que alguien esta tosiendo con sangre (coughing up blood), ese es un sintoma de cancer pulmonar (lung cancer) esto se llama hemoptisis (hemotysis), es distinto del hemothorax, y es tratado con medicamentos, sobretodo por la edad de la paciente.

    Saludos!
     
  10. tillymarigold Senior Member

    US
    US/English
    She does not use a chest tube, but rather is hooked up to one of those tanks with the tube that goes under the nose. She's had this condition for years (or many months, at least) and is currently able to live at home. Both of those things I know from other supporting documents and photos that I have here (I have large parts of her medical record), not from this particular document.

    As for faithfulness: my problem is that the Spanish word derrame pulmonar is very close to derrame pleural and, as fsabroso says, commonly used to mean derrame pleural by people who are not accustomed to medical terminology. However, the English term "pulmonary hemorrhage" bears no relation to the term "pleural effusion" and, as far as I know, no one in English ever says "pulmonary hemorrhage" when they mean "pleural effusion." So I feel that putting "pulmonary hemorrhage" without any explanation would *not* be faithful to the original, because derrame pulmonar, while most likely incorrect, is closely related to what is most likely the correct term and sometimes used accidentally instead of it, and translating it as "pulmonary hemorrhage" would lose both the similarity and the connotation that it's a common error.

    It would be like if someone said "That's mute" (instead of "moot") and I translated it as Es mudo, which is clearly nonsensical, without any indication that the word "mute" in English is very similar to the word "moot" (debatible, discutible) and that people often say the former when they mean the latter. (Possibly not a very good example, but I hope the point is clear!)
     
  11. Sr. Moose

    Sr. Moose Senior Member

    Frostbite Falls, Alces and English
    ¡Qué interesante!, fsabrosa. Simplemente has traducido mi comentario. Pero entre todo esos espejos y humo, ¿por dónde están los datos en apoyo de esta "inclinación" tuya?

    Entonces, a ver si nos entendemos—no sería la mujer que sabe de la enfermedad y las síntomas las que sufre su propia mamá, sino los foreros dotados de los poderes de clarividencia.

    ¡Imagínate! ;)
     
  12. Sr. Moose

    Sr. Moose Senior Member

    Frostbite Falls, Alces and English
    Tillymarigold

    Chronic pulmonary hemorrhaging is the most common symptom of lung cancer and is not synonymous with pleural effusion. The reason why a chest tube isn't present is because she is not being treated for pleural effusion.

    I thought you just wanted to translate your sentence and didn't realize that we were supposed to conjure up errors or to take for granted that narrator doesn't know what she's talking about. I had no idea that we were going to invent a scenario along the way. So, I'll let you guys sort that stuff out.

    Corto y fuera
     
  13. fsabroso

    fsabroso Moderadiólogo

    South Texas
    Perú / Castellano
    Hola Sr. Moose,

    Si bien se consulta por una traducción, Usted debe saber que tambien hay que interpretarla.
    Mi "inclinación" por "derrame pleural" es como ya dije, la forma común o informal como las personas se expresan en español, y si, es un poco adivinar que esta tratando de decir. Y esa "clarividencia" solo la podemos aportar quienes hablamos español como lengua materna.

    Es como si algún amigo chileno te dice "me duelen los ortejos", tú no entenderías que se refiere a los dedos del pie.

    O el mejor ejemplo es cuando alguien que solo habla español dice, "a tal persona le dio un derrame", nadie dice "accidente cerebro-vascular", pero uno debe interpretarlo.

    Saludos!
     
  14. tillymarigold Senior Member

    US
    US/English
    Bueno, esta misma mujer dice que la hermana padece una enfermedad mental cuando yo sé (porque tengo una carta del médico de la hermana) que en realidad es un retraso mental lo que padece. Además, a pesar de que ha indicado que la mamá padece de cáncer pulmonar, el historial médico no indica cáncer sino enfisema. Así que la verdad es que no confío mucho en la precisión de su uso de la terminología médica.

    Y por mucho que critiques a fsabroso, no veo que nos hayas proporcionado los datos en apoyo de tu opinión tampoco.
     
  15. tillymarigold Senior Member

    US
    US/English
    Vale, por el momento lo tengo traducido "pulmonary hemorrhage" pero con una nota al pie de la página que dice lo siguiente:

    T.N.: The original reads derrame pulmonar 'pulmonary hemorrhage, bleeding of the lungs.' Besides its primary meaning, that term is also commonly used among laypeople to refer to derrame pleural 'pleural effusion, fluid in the lungs.' Both pleural effusion and chronic pulmonary hemorrhage can be signs of lung cancer.
     
  16. ERASMO_GALENO Senior Member

    Lima limón
    Perú, Español
    Dear Mr. Moose,

    We don't say "corto y fuera" in Spanish, it would be "cambio y fuera".

    Greetings,

    Erasmo.
     
  17. Bil

    Bil Senior Member

    English USA
    derrame pulmonar pulmonary hemorrhage :)

     
  18. mary de la loma

    mary de la loma Senior Member

    USA
    English
    Saludos

    Estoy de acuerdo también con Sr. Moose. Esta frase dice "un derrame pulmonar" y por consiguiente habla de 'pulmonary hemorrhaging.'

     
  19. JB

    JB Senior Member

    Santa Monica, CA, EEUU
    English (AE)
    A todos,
    I am enjoying the "debate" and learning more than I ever knew on the subject. I would suggest that attention needs to be paid to register. One problem there, however, is that often the coimmon, ordinary word in Spanish (pulmonar, ombligo, etc.) equates to the technical term in English. (No average English speaker ever refers to his "umbilicus", or could even tell you what it means, and few could tell you what "renal" refers to, unless they themselves have had kidney problems.)

    Still, I understand Tilly's dilemma. If a patient says, "Me duele el cerebro," I am not going to say his brain hurts, when I know that, for him, the cerebro is the back of his head.

    Nevertheless, my "inclination", since you are apparently translating an interview with someone not well educated, I would suggest saying something like "bleeding in the lungs" or "lung hemmorage", which admittedly is not proper medical terminology but to me is like translating "They put me inside a big tube and took pictures of my legs", if that is what the patient said, vs. "They performed an MRI of my lower extremities." (Just an exampe, guys.)

    (¿Saben? a veces me siento obligado de meter mis dos centavitos--no sé--debe de ser una enfermedad crónica. Ni modo. Ojalá le ayude a alguien.)
     
  20. mary de la loma

    mary de la loma Senior Member

    USA
    English
    The quoted statement strikes me as bright, natural and straightforward. As far as I'm concerned, there is no debate. Whereas a patient can linger for months with hemoptysis, that is not the case with undrained pleurorrhea. In short, none of the educational shortcomings evidenced in this thread are attributable to the female interviewee.

    "pulmonary bleeding in the presence of squamous cell carcinoma" (New England Journal of Medicine).

    "to confirm pulmonary bleeding especially in occult alveolar hemorrhages and to search for malignancies" (European Society of Pneumology).

    "Primary epithelioid angiosarcoma of the lung presenting as pulmonary hemorrhage" (The American Journal of Surgical Pathology).

    "pulmonary hemorrhaging, ranging from petechiae to free blood" (American Journal of Physiology).

    "chronic pulmonary hemorrhage with fibrosis" (New England Journal of Medicine).

    "with the concern of ongoing, chronic pulmonary hemorrhage" (The Journal of Pediatrics).

     
  21. sergio11 Senior Member

    Los Angeles and Buenos Aires
    Spanish (lunfardo)
    The main problem here is that, with all the "logical" explanations everybody is giving, none of them resembles at all what a Spanish-speaking person may want to convey with the expression "derrame pulmonar".

    First of all, "derrame pulmonar" is not a technical term, but a popular, colloquial expression. In Spanish, we don't call anything "derrame pulmonar". I have never, never, never, ever heard it. If it is a pulmonary hemorrhage, it is called "hemorragia pulmonar" or "hemoptisis" (word which also exists in English: Hemoptysis). In the colloquial lingo, people may refer to it as "sangre en los pulmones", or "escupió sangre", etc. Nobody calls it "derrame pulmonar".

    Second, nobody calls "derrame" the pulmonary edema. They may say "se le llenó de agua el pulmón" or something similar, but they don't call it "derrame".

    The only time we call something "derrame" in the chest area, is when it is a pleural effusion or a pericardial effusion.

    That is why I agree with Fsabroso, ClaudioMeduc y Erasmo_Galeno, that the most likely translation may be pleural effusion.

    But all of this said, we have to add that, not being a technical term, but a popular, colloquial expression that we never heard before and don't know how it is being used, it can mean anything and everything. It may not even be any of the possibilities mentioned here. Who knows?

    All we can say with certainty is that in formal language it does not mean anything.

    Saludos
     
  22. No_C_Nada Senior Member

    Castillian - Perú
    Según la enciclopedia médica, "derrame pulmonar paraneumónico" y "derrame pleural" son sinónimos.

     
  23. emergentologo New Member

    Argentina - argentino (CAST)
    Bueno veo que viene de largo y solo aportare mi modesta opinion.
    Como dicen mas arriba "interpretando" lo que dices, lo que medicamente uno tiene que pensar es que esta mujer tiene un derrame pleural, altamente frecuente en el cancer pulmonar y no asi el "derrame pulmonar" ya que medicamente el derrame pulmonar no existe (como no existe el derrame cerebral, perdon quien posteo eso, sera un ACV/AVE/Stroke hemorragico, pero en la terminologia medica no hay derrames cerebrales), ya que lo mas proximo (si estuviese ocupado por sangre y fuese traumatico) seria una contusion pulmonar.
    Asi como interpretamos una "radiografia", interpretamos las palabras del paciente (o del colega de turno en el foro), no hacemos clarividencia.

    Acuerdo entonces con Pleural Effussion.

    Espero haber ayudado, si hace falta alguna aclaracion sobre torax, con gusto amplio.

    German
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008

Share This Page