Differences between "twin" languages

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by Gnoj, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. Gnoj Senior Member

    Macedonia
    Macedonian
    My previous topic "Macedonian vs. Bulgarian, Czech vs. Slovak..." was deleted due to Multiple violations of our rule limiting quoted lyrics to four lines (due to copyright restrictions) I wasn't aware about. So I'm reopening the thread by taking into account the moderator's remarks for the previous one.

    All right then, let's have some fun with differences between "twin" languages, such as Macedonian and Bulgarian, Czech and Slovak, Croatian and Serbian, Serbian and Bosnian, Russian and Belorusian, Belorusian and Polish, or whatever "pair" you see fit.
    Personally, I'm curious about differences between Czech and Slovak, but in the meantime I'll start with some Macedonian and Bulgarian.

    Ḱe ima li den k'o denot so nea, od sonce posvetla,
    den k'o pesna čuena?
    Ḱe ima li noḱ k'o noḱta so nea, k'o bajka raskošna,
    Nadvor - leto, v duša - zima sibirska.

    -------------------


    Šte ima li den kato denja s neja, ot slănce po-svetla,
    den kato čuta pesen?
    Šte ima li nošt kato noštta s neja, kato razkošna vălšebna prikazka,
    Navăn - ljato, v dušata - zima sibirska.

    (ḱ = кь/ть, ǵ = гь/дь)

    And remember: No lyrics with more than four lines. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  2. lavverats Junior Member

    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    Ookay! Let's go, Mr. Pus!
    Would you please be so kind and find all the ten fun differences here:

    Az săm bălgarche. Obicham
    nashite planini zeleni,
    bălgarin da se naricham -
    părva radost e za mene.

    aaand now - the Jazikot:

    Jas sum Bugarche. Gi sakam
    nashite planini zeleni,
    Bugarin da se narekuvam -
    prva radost e za mene.

    :D

    P.P. Zoshto be zanimavash i tuka so istoto? Ne ti se zdodeja?:p
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  3. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    Erm, if I may make a suggestion? The previous thread was closed because of rule relating to possible copyright infringement, if I'm not mistaken? Well, if that's the only reason, if anyone has plenty of folk songs, it is the peoples of the Balkans. Now, I believe it's highly unlikely that folk songs' lyrics are under some copyright, so perhaps they could be used for these side by side comparisons? That is, of course, if no other rules are being broken.

    I for one would like to see what the lyrics of the Serbian version of this folk song look like in Macedonian and Bulgarian. The dialect is that of Southeast Serbia, I believe, somewhat closer to Macedonian and Bulgarian. (I know there are distinct Macedonian and Bulgarian versions of that song as well, with different lyrics, but I'm not talking about them at the moment).

    The Serbian version:
    (By the way, the lyrics seem to be incomplete. There should be another stanza with Crne oči, curo, imaš...)
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  4. lavverats Junior Member

    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    "I'm here to fullfill all your dreams." :D

    The Bulgarian version:

    "Rusi kosi, druzhke, :D imash/ zhalish li gi ti?/ Aman, da gi zhalya, ne bih ti gi dala/ da gi mărsish ti.
    Byalo litse, druzhke, imash/ zhalish li gi ti?/ Aman, da go zhalya, ne bih ti go dala/ da go lyubish ti.
    Medeni ustni, druzhke, imash/ zhalish li gi ti?/ Aman, da gi zhalya, ne bih ti gi dala/ da gi piesh ti."

    I'm not pretty sure if "cura" is "druzhka". Google says "cura"="priyatelka".
    "Aman" is a turkish word not used in the literary language, but it's known by everyone.
    "Usta" is "mouth" while "ustni" = "lips"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2012
  5. TriglavNationalPark

    TriglavNationalPark Senior Member

    Chicago, IL, U.S.A.
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    Yes, folk songs should be O.K. The Lord's Prayer is also often used for comparing languages; it's also in public domain (i.e., not subject to copyright). For example, here it is in Slovenian:

    (extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

    And here it is in standardized Kajkavian Croatian, the closest Slovenian has to a "twin" (even though the differences are still significant):

    (extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

    NOTE: To prevent folk song lyrics or religious texts from being deleted by other moderators, please label them as public domain (as I just did above).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  6. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    Lord's Prayer

    Czech
    (extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

    Slovak
    (extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

    Here's a short excerpt from a random Czech news article with my own Slovak translation of it:

    Czech
    Slovak
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  7. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    The only differences between the version you've provided and a translation into Standard Macedonian would be the word cura (девојка, мома or a derivative of one of them would be used instead), руси коси (no fem./masc. distinction in pl.), and пиеш instead of piješ.

    I assume the last line should read medne usne on account of the pl. 3P pronoun gi (in which case it would be медни усни).
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  8. Gnoj Senior Member

    Macedonia
    Macedonian
    And "ruse kose" => "rusi kosi"
     
  9. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    What would be the vocative of devojka and moma?

    In BCSM usta is plurale tantum, so 3. person pl. is required here, at least in the standard language (I'm not sure about SE Serbia dialect). One could perhaps argue that medne usne would fit better, but usta can mean usne in BCSM colloquially, so licentia poetica.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  10. Arath Senior Member

    Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    In Bulgarian, that would be девойко (devojko) and моме (mome).

    In Bulgarian, уста (usta) could also be plural, but it's considered old-fashioned. Here's an example from the poem Хаджи Димитър by Hristo Botev

    На една страна захвърлил пушка,
    на друга сабля на две строшена;
    очи темнеят, глава се люшка,
    уста проклинат цяла вселена!

    Na edna strana zahvărlil puška,
    na druga sablja na dve strošena;
    i temnejat, glava se ljuška,
    usta proklinat (3rd person plural) cjala vselena!
     
  11. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    Девојко and моме.

    Yes, of course — that and vrata always muddle me up because in Macedonian pluralia tantum always have an ending expected for ordinary plurals: панталони, ножици, etc.
     
  12. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    Thank you all guys! :)

    Here is the version in standard Serbian:
    Note: piješ sounds strange to me in this context. Either archaism or dialectalism from SE Serbia, or poetic license.

    I think it would be interesting to try this for a few more examples. Perhaps we should try finding some Gorani folk song and seeing what its equivalents in modern standard languages are?

    Here is one ("Goranske narodne pesme", Harun Hasani, 1987):

    (extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

    The version in Serbian Latin alphabet:
    (extended quote; no copyright restrictions)
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  13. Sobakus Senior Member

    For comparison, here's the Russian translations:

    I translated this one in folkish style. I presume, piti is to drink here.
    Русы косы у тебя, девка / не жалко тебе их? / Коли б жалко мне их было, не дала бы / тебе их перебирать.
    Бело лицо у тебя, девка / не жалко тебе его? / Коли б жалко мне его было, не дала бы / тебе его целовать.
    Медовы уста у тебя, девка / не жалко тебе их? / Коли б жалко мне их было, не дала бы / тебе из них испить.

    This is my attempt at translating the Lord's Prayer into modern Russian based on some of the better translations I've found, but almost everyone uses the OCS variant or its slightly modernised version.
     
  14. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    Well in my neck of the woods, smoking is пие цигари. :D

    I'll keep in it Latin script.

    Utre će odam mnogu daleku / mnogu daleku vo tuđa zemja
    Vo tuđa zemja, vo tuđ memlečet / na pusti gurbet, za pusti pari
    Će se odvojam od rodbina, od familija / od mila majka i od baba(jko)
    Ka će se odvojam od karasevda / i siten ćeleč
    Koga se dvoime od lude deca / usta mi zbori, srce mi gori
    Ah mori majko i mili baba(jko) / mi ste pratile na pusti gurbet / mi ste pratile za pusti pari
    Site rabotame so strav vo srce / dali će najdeme što sme ostavile
    Baba(jko) i majka, braća i sestri / deca i žena i cela rodbina

    I'm not familiar with the italicised words. Gurbet is widely used but pečalba is prefered. Baba and babajko are used by Macedonian-speaking muslims, so that's why I've used it here. Zbori and rabota are also widely used but zboruva and raboti are prefered in the standard. I understand the mi in mi ste pratile as being an intensifier as in kako si mi? (BCS) ~ kako mi si? (Mac.).
     
  15. Gnoj Senior Member

    Macedonia
    Macedonian
    For God's sake don't use Ć i Đ in Macedonian, please. :) It's just not accurate. If you don't like Ḱ and Ǵ, at least use Kj and Gj.
     
  16. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    As for memlečet, I think it would be this:

    memlećet
    Judging by the context, I think država fits best. I have no idea what ćeleč is.

    Here is my attempt at a translation to standard Serbian, keeping it as close as possible to the original. Words I don't understand either in the context or not at all are in italics.

     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  17. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    I of course would not like to interfere in this issue, but your comment makes me wonder what the exact pronunciation of sounds rendered above as ћ and ђ among Goranci is. Harun Hasani seems to belong to the pro-Serb party among them, so theoretically he would have been more likely to want to use Serbian spelling even if the sounds don't exactly match. However, perhaps that's a topic for another thread, so I'll just leave this as a nota bene.

    EDIT: According to the Wikipedia article, those Gorani sounds really are ć and đ:
    By the way, I believe I've read someone (iobyo?) say that some pre-1940s Macedonian authors used Cyrillic Ћ and Ђ for Ќ and Ѓ sounds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  18. iobyo Senior Member

    Bitola, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    I only used Latin to make it easier to visually compare the two pieces (also why I used ć and đ).

    The only time I don't mind Latin is where transliteration is common practice (street signs, passports, etc.).

    A Google Books search for мемлеќет yields a few good results. Ќелеч does not.

    The Macedonian dialect that borders the Gora dialect pronounces these sounds just as in BCS, so I suspect it may be the same in Gora.

    Some used Serbian Cyrillic with the Serbian spelling conventions of the time, others did the same with Bulgarian Cyrillic. Then there are those who adapted one or more of these with varying consistency, some notably even designed their own glyphs.
     
  19. Gnoj Senior Member

    Macedonia
    Macedonian
    That's during the time of Serbian rule of today's R. Macedonia's territory between 1913 and 1941, when there was no codified standard Macedonian language and the letters Ќ and Ѓ still didn't exist. Prior to that were used Кь and Гь, and in some rare occasions - К' and Г'.
     
  20. Santanawinds Senior Member

    English - USA

    Please do use Latin whenever possible, because this topic is very interesting and I don't know the Cyrillic alphabet (yet). I have learned some letters with the help of road signs in Bosnia, but that only means that I have perfected my ability to read the names of rivers, roads, cities and villages :)

    And now I see Iobyo mentioned there are differences between Serbian Cyrillic and Bulgarian Cyrillic? Hm! I had no idea! This is good to know, considering my plan to visit Bulgaria as soon as I learn the Cyrillic that's used on Bosnian road signs!
     
  21. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    Actually, modern Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian Cyrillic alphabets all have some letters that are used in one of them but not in the others. Here you can see the letters specific to Serbian Cyrillic and other differences between the Serbian and other Cyrillic alphabets.

    Serbian alphabet used to use many of the letters that are still in use in Bulgarian before roughly the middle of the 19th century, but has since been reformed. Here is the famous Njegoš's "Mountain Wreath" in its original (I believe) form - Горскıй вıенацъ.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  22. Arath Senior Member

    Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    Lord's prayer in Bulgarian:
    Transliteration:
     
  23. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    What is the difference between нас (nas) and ни (ni)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2012
  24. Arath Senior Member

    Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    нас (nas) is the long accusative form, and the form used after prepositions.
    ни (ni) is the short accusative (no izbavi ni), short dative (daj ni dnes) and short possessive form (Nasăštnija ni hljab).

    We use the long accusative forms of the personal pronouns instead of the short ones when we want to stress them.

    In this case, you could also use ни (ni), "и не въведи ни" (i ne văvedi ni).
     
  25. Gnoj Senior Member

    Macedonia
    Macedonian
    This may be for the "false friends" topic:

    (nas) ni (BG) = (nas) nè (MK) = nas (SR) ≈ us (EN)
    (na nas) ni (BG) = (nas) ni (MK) = nam (SR) ≈ to us (EN)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2012
  26. lavverats Junior Member

    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    Mhm. It's always been strange to me to see (or hear) "Mene mi e sram, madam" istead of "Men(e) me e sram, madam".:D
     
  27. Vulcho Junior Member

    Bulgarian
    The Lord's prayer is not an example of standard Bulgarian, nor anything like spoken Bulgarian. A sentence like "Не въведи нас" or "Не погледни мене" is just wrong imo, from a modern point of view.
     
  28. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    Well ok then, here is the Lord's Prayer in its official standard Croatian version used by Catholics (taken from Wikipedia), and my attempt at translating into a more-or-less modern standard Bosnian.

    Croatian, official
    Bosnian, modern
    The word order is more everyday/conversational in the second version, the original is highly poetic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2012
  29. osemnais Senior Member

    Bulgarian
    Who can understand and translate this? :D
     
  30. Gnoj Senior Member

    Macedonia
    Macedonian
    Something like "they are fed up with ikebana"??? I can't find any deeper meaning.
     
  31. DenisBiH

    DenisBiH Senior Member

    HJP gives several definitions for ikebana. I'd say the one I'm most familiar with and that I think is most frequently used here is the last one (a political figurehead with no actual power; sometimes also a group or entity (like a political party) with little or no actual power, just "for show").

    What is дървеса(та)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  32. Arath Senior Member

    Bulgaria
    Bulgarian
    Definite plural of дърво (tree), so "дървесата" means "the trees".
     
  33. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    I thought that this might perhaps be of some interest (also available here). Unfortunately, I don't know of any decent stuff written on this topic in English being freely available online.

    I would also like to note that some letters or words that look the same in Slovak and Czech (when written) may have considerably different pronunciation. For instance, in the Czech word den (day) and the Slovak word deň (day) the letters d represent quite distinct sounds. In Slovak, the letter d is pronounced as if it was spelled with a caron (that is, like ď) in this case. I'd say that some knowledge of the Slovak and Czech orthographies is necessary in order to compare texts in these languages and to form opinions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012

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