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Disappearance of adverb y in Old Spanish

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Beachxhair, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. Beachxhair

    Beachxhair Senior Member

    Manchester UK
    English-England
    According to Penny, y was an adverb in Old Spanish, just at is in Modern French, meaning there. Obviously y disappeared in Spanish (in fact, y means and, although is this unrelated to the adverbial y, as ahí (or allí or allá, depending on context) means there.

    How did y disappear from Spanish, and where did ahí/allí/allá come from?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. Cenzontle

    Cenzontle Senior Member

    English, U.S.
    The second part of your question is easier than the first.
    Menéndez Pidal (Manual de gramática histórica española, Sec. 128.2) derives ahí, allí, and allá from Latin combinations of preposition + adverb: ad-hic, ad-illic, and ad-illac, respectively. And the O.Sp. adverb y (also i and hi) is from Lat. ibi. Corominas (Breve diccionario etimológico...) agrees for allí and allá, both first documented "h. 1140" (which probably means the Poem of the Cid). Meanwhle ahí, accordng to Corominas, isn't documented until the beginning of the 13th century (well, that's not so very much later, is it). He gives its etymology as "Del antiguo hi [another spelling of your y] con la partícula a- demostrativa o enfática que aparece en ayer, allá y otros adverbios." Also "el antiguo hi resulta de una fusión del lat. ĬBĪ, de igual significado, con HĪC 'aquí'."


    Modern ahí seems to be the medieval y (i, hi) with a prefix a-. So the first part of your question, "How did y disappear"
    might be rephrased "how, and during what period, did hi acquire the a- prefix."
    Think about other adverbs that acquired initial a- (adentro, afuera, acerca...).

    In comparing with French, note that French can be (usually is?) unstressed, and proclitic to the verb, like an object pronoun.
    But Old Spanish y seems to have been stressed, if it gave rise to modern ​ahí.
     
  3. Beachxhair

    Beachxhair Senior Member

    Manchester UK
    English-England
    :tick: Yes, in French, pronouns (apart from disjunctive ones of course) are often cliticized j'y vais, j'en reviens, etc . I'm going to start a different thread (if one doesn't exist already) about why French has adverbial pronouns (y and en) and Spanish doesn't.
     
  4. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
  5. Beachxhair

    Beachxhair Senior Member

    Manchester UK
    English-England
  6. Beachxhair

    Beachxhair Senior Member

    Manchester UK
    English-England
    Does anyone know how adverbial pronouns developed from Latin to Romance? I can't seem to find any articles about it. Thank you :)
     
  7. klg12 New Member

    English
    Catalan kept them. You have hi and en.
    He d'anar-hi per veure'l // Hi vaig per veure'l --- I have to go there to see it. // I'm going there to see it.
    Tens els gats? No, en tinc cap --- Have you got the cats? I haven't got any (of them).
    Not perfect examples, I am very out of practice with Catalan so please accept my apologies in advance for any errors or presumption / stupidity on my part.
     
  8. XiaoRoel

    XiaoRoel Senior Member

    Vigo (Galiza)
    galego, español
    Hi, y (las dos grafías más usuales de este descendiente del ibi latino) que en la edad media reina en los textos va siendo substituido paulatinamente por aí/ahí que parece salido de la adición de una a-protética para darle cuerpo y no de ad hic. Sobreviven asimiladas a primeras y terceras personas de ser y haber en español (en gallego sólo resiste en hai y el portuguéss ni siquiera ahí la conserva).
    Una supervivencia de ubi interrogativo (medieval u/hu) se dá en gallego en la frase ulo?, 'donde está' (<ubi illum?.
     
  9. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Entonces he (primera persona de haber) = *ho + hí, o algo parecido?

    Imaginaba (equivocadamente, al parecer) que he tenía origen análogo al de (de saber), como los dos tienen infinitivos bien parecidos (-aber).
     
  10. XiaoRoel

    XiaoRoel Senior Member

    Vigo (Galiza)
    galego, español
    No. Soló soy (1ª p. sg. pres. ind.), estoy (1ª sg. pres. ind. de estar) y hay (forma de presente de indicativo del haber terciopersonal).
     
  11. Beachxhair

    Beachxhair Senior Member

    Manchester UK
    English-England
    No es probable que el origen del y al fin de soy, estoy, doy etc sea el adverbio pronominal y. Cuando estas formas se desarollaban, el y ya había caído en desuso. Mirad este articulo:

    http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/prbs.2006.18.issue-2/probus.2006.009/probus.2006.009.xml
     
  12. XiaoRoel

    XiaoRoel Senior Member

    Vigo (Galiza)
    galego, español
    Soy es analógico de hay. Voy, doy, estoy, que no aparecen hasta el XVI, serán analógicos de soy.
    Por tanto habrá que partir del impersonal hay como la forma que desencadena la analogía.
    Hay no veo razón de peso para no considerarlo formado por ha (<hat<habet) que en fonética sintáctica integre el adverbio de lugar hi (<ibi) y produzca la nueva forma impersonal hay. Semántica y fonéticamente es plausible esta teoría.
    La analogía es un vicio de la lingüística histórica que se debe evitar cuando hay otros argumentos fonéticos y semánticos que avalen otra evolución.
    No es nueva esta explicación analógica con base en fui. Pero hay y fui no suelen compartir contexto y semánticamente los diferencia una barrera aspectual. Además la marca -i de 1ª persona del perfecto indefinido es de amplio uso en español y no se entiende bien como pudo asociarse a una forma imperfecta, y más cuando el adverbio conviene con la nueva semántica impersonal de ha.
    La existencia de fui (variantes: fúe, fúi, fué, fuí) pudo como mucho haber dado carta de naturaleza al monosílabo verbal con diptongo [Vj].
     
  13. Angelo di fuoco Senior Member

    Germany
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Veure'l: to see him.
    Veure-ho: to see it.
    No en tinc (cap).

    Since my Catalan grammar isn't perfect either (basically learned the differences to Spanish at very fast pace), I had to check for myself.

    Hi has a very wide range of uses, broader than in French, it can stand for almost anything (except the cases where you have to use en) - and anyone (impossible in French!).
     

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