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Ecclesiastic Pronunciation: gratias, excelsis

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by Il_Trovatore, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. Il_Trovatore Junior Member

    Thessaloniki, Greece
    Greece, greek
    Hello there!

    I need to clear up some pronunciation issues that have been bothering be for a while.

    Is the letter 't' in the Latin word 'gratias' pronounced as the letter 'z' in the Italian word 'grazie'?

    And, also, how is the word 'excelsis' pronounced? I've heard this with two different pronounciations, the one as if it was written 'ecs-celsis' in modern Italian and the other as if it was written 'ec-scelsis' in modern Italian. Which one is the right one?

    Thank you for your help!
     
  2. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Dear Trovatore, there are several ways to pronounce Latin. Which one are you aiming for? The modern ecclesiastical pronunciation, perhaps, judging by your examples?

    If so, then the "t" in gratias is indeed pronounced /ts/ like an Italian "z", and the "xc" in excelsis is pronounced /tsh/, like an Italian "c".
     
  3. Il_Trovatore Junior Member

    Thessaloniki, Greece
    Greece, greek
    Thank you very much for your answer, Outsider. Yes, I'm looking for the modern ecclesiastical pronunciation, indeed. So, in 'excelsis', is the 'xc' just 'tsh'? I mean, isn't it 'ks&tsh'?
     
  4. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Before "e" or "i", yes. I remember hearing excelsis pronounced as "etchelsis" (using English orthography) in the hymn Gloria in excelsis Deo. At least, that's what it sounded like to my ears.

    See also this article.
     
  5. Il_Trovatore Junior Member

    Thessaloniki, Greece
    Greece, greek
    Thank you very much for your help, Outsider!
     
  6. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Hmm, now I'm not sure anymore. This articles says it can be "ekshelsis" or "ekstchelsis"... :confused:

    Do a web search, there may be official rules of pronunciation or samples online. ;)
     
  7. Il_Trovatore Junior Member

    Thessaloniki, Greece
    Greece, greek
    Yes, I myself saw that just a minute ago, searching! I guess they are both right and I've heard them both lots of times in recordings, although 'kstch' seems more logical to me, since it is the 'x' as 'ks' and the 'c' as 'tch'.
     
  8. dan9184 Senior Member

    Roma
    Italy,Italian
    ciao
    gratias nel latino ecclesiastico e studiato nei licei italiani si pronuncia "grazias", mentre nel latino "originale"(specialmente quello parlato tra il I sec. a.c. e il I sec d.c.)si sarebbe probabilmente pronunciato "gratias".

    per quanto riguarda excelsis, nel latino "moderno" è pronunciato ecs-celsis, mentre nel latino "originale" si sarebbe pronunciato ecs-kelsis.
    ciao:)
     
  9. dan9184 Senior Member

    Roma
    Italy,Italian
    scusa, :) excelsis: "eccelsis" in latino scolastico
     
  10. Il_Trovatore Junior Member

    Thessaloniki, Greece
    Greece, greek
    Grazie tante, dan9184!
     

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