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EN: team + singular/plural agreement

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by MiniM, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. MiniM Junior Member

    France
    Français
    Hi everyone :)

    J'ai un doute sur la terminaison de ce verbe :

    "Our team wishes you a Happy New Year"

    My workmate thinks the right version is : " Our team wish you..."

    Someone could give me the correct answer to be sure, please.

    Thank you !
     
  2. radagasty Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    Australia, Cantonese
    Plural agreement would be usual in British English, since it is the members of the team who wish people a happy new year, and not the team as a single entity. I believe that AmE requires strict grammatical agreement, and therefore the verb would be in the singular.

    For further discussion of plural agreement with singular collective nouns, see, for example:
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2555191
     
  3. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    En anglais américain, il faut accorder le verbe avec son sujet, lequel est singulier : Our team wishes you…

    En anglais britannique, on peut aussi accorder le verbe sylleptiquement avec les personnes de l'équipe plutôt que l'équipe elle-même si on veut insister davantage sur les individus que sur le groupe : Our team wish you…

    Voir aussi The Collective Noun.

    P.S.: Je n'avais pas vu le post de radagasty.
     
  4. laverdure2 Senior Member

    I wrote this :
    'the team that greets and shows the palace off exerts a sincere enthusiasm' but someone told me no s in exert.

    But in that case, should I put an s or not for greet and show ?

    Is team only used as plural ? I'm lost...:eek:
     
  5. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Il y a en fait une différence entre l'anglais britannique et l'anglais américain. Je vous invite à lire le [début de ce fil].

    Cela dit, il faut rester cohérent dans la même phrase : team ne devrait pas être d'abord singulier et juste après pluriel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  6. laverdure2 Senior Member

    C'est bien ça mon problème, au départ, j'avais tout mis au singulier donc avec un s, mais quelqu'un m'a dit, que pour exert, et seulement pour ce mot, il ne fallait pas de s, alors je n'y comprends plus rien. J'écris pour des British. Je vais voir le fil de ce pas.... Merci!

    Eh bien c'est parfaitement clair pour moi, pas de S ! Merci Maître Capello!
     
  7. jmackny Senior Member

    New York State, USA
    US, English

    There should indeed be an "s." It sounds very strange otherwise!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  8. laverdure2 Senior Member

    It seems that BE English takes no S when AM English does... (see above).I'm in UK, the personne who told me to remove the S is British so...
     
  9. jmackny Senior Member

    New York State, USA
    US, English
    Well, now that I think about it...there IS one potential justification for omitting an "s" in this context. That would be ONLY if the words we don't see --the ones preceding "the team that greets" -- required the subjunctive. For example, "It might be desirable that the team that greets and shows the palace off exert a sincere enthusiasm." In this case, you would say "exert" because it's in the subjunctive.

    I believe it's true that the subjunctive is more widespread in BE than in AE.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  10. laverdure2 Senior Member

    It's not about the subjonctive but about the team, look [at radagasty's post].
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  11. jmackny Senior Member

    New York State, USA
    US, English
    C'est vraiment choquant. Je suis complètement abasourdi!! Thank you for teaching me something new about BE laverdure2. :)
    But I have no idea why someone who speaks BE wouldn't use the same verb form for "greet," "show," and "exert"!
     
  12. laverdure2 Senior Member

    No, no, I haven't been clear enough : in BE, the three verbs are without the S as the team is considered as a plural (the team = several crewmembers).
    So it's : 'the team that greet and show... exert a sincere enthusiasm'.

     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  13. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Yet the original sentence had an "s" for each verb, but apparently someone told you to remove the "s" from exert only… To me there are only three possibilities:

    The team that greet and show the palace off exert a sincere enthusiasm. (British English)
    The team that greets and shows the palace off exerts a sincere enthusiasm. (American English and, depending on context, British English as well)
    It is important that the team that greets and shows the palace off exert [present subjunctive, 3rd person singular] a sincere enthusiasm.

    P.S.: I'm afraid you are incorrect regarding moi qui croyait, but this is off-topic in this thread. Please have a look at the following discussions if you are interested in that topic:
    FR: c'est moi qui / c'est nous qui + 1re personne
    (c'est) moi qui + accord du verbe - forum Français Seulement
     
  14. jmackny Senior Member

    New York State, USA
    US, English
    Just to follow up, what seemed shocking to me as a speaker of AE was only the apparent mixture of the singular and plural verbs to accompany "team" (without the subjunctive). If such a mixture is not present, and instead we are talking merely about using "team" with a plural verb in all three instances, then maybe that is still a bit surprising, but it's hardly shocking.
     
  15. laverdure2 Senior Member

    Thank you Maître Capello. I don't know about the french, honestly, each I ask myself so I will carefully read the link.

    I wasn't clear enough : the person who told me to remove the S said to do it for all verbs, not just one.
    At the beginning, I wrote spontaneously without s (and I don't know why, it sounded better to my ears) and later, I added the S. But I was wrong.
     
  16. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    On peut poser cette contrainte comme une règle stylistique, mais grammaticalement, du moment où le singulier et le pluriel sont tous deux admissibles en fonction du prédicat, ils devraient en principe pouvoir coexister dans une même phrase. Il faudrait que des locuteurs britanniques donnent leur avis, mais je peux imaginer un exemple comme The team, which is named after the mythical founder of our city, are playing the Springfield Pumpkins this Thursday.
     
  17. laverdure2 Senior Member

    Oui CapnPrep, j'ai déjà entendu et lu ce genre de choses. Mais dans des journaux, des magazines, donc je ne jurerais pas que c'est 100% orthodoxe.
    La personne qui m'a dit d'enlever ces S est British (grammar school and all the stuff) mais n'a pas pris le temps de me répondre quand j'ai démandé si c'était parce que team inclut une notion de groupe.
     
  18. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Certes, mais dans l'exemple initial, je vois mal comment cette différence pourrait se justifier car le sens même la rejette.
     
  19. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Quant à moi, je n'ai jamais compris pourquoi les collectifs prennent la marque du pluriel en Angleterre mais non aux États-Unis ni au Canada. Pour moi, lorsqu'un nom peut exister au singulier et au pluriel, le verbe devrait varier suivant la forme du nom. The team is, the teams are... Mais ce n'est pas le sujet de ce fil.
     

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