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Enquanto não ratificada

Discussion in 'Português (Portuguese)' started by William Stein, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    This is another passage from the Brazilian law on public disclosure:

    § 5o A classificação de informação no grau ultrassecreto pelas autoridades previstas nas alíneas “d” e “e” do inciso I do caput deverá ser ratificada pelo Ministro de Estado, no prazo de trinta dias.
    § 6o Enquanto não ratificada, a classificação de que trata o § 5o considera-se válida, para todos os efeitos legais.

    § 6 directly contradicts § 5, right?

    §5 - The classification of information as top secret by the authorities referred to in items “d” and “e” of sub-paragraph I of the main paragraph is subject to ratification by the Minister of State within thirty days thereafter.
    §6 – Until such ratification, the classification referred to in §5 shall be considered valid, for all intents and purposes [FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED THIRTY DAYS].

    I think it doesn't make any sense without the part in brackets because otherwise it be valid forever without ratification (which is the opposite of §5)

    What do you think?
     
  2. mglenadel

    mglenadel Senior Member

    Rio de Janeiro
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Not really. It as to be ratified within thirty days, but until it is, its situation will be deemed as top-secret. Probably it will be downgraded to something less extreme if the minister does not ratify the top secret classification.
     
  3. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Right, but there's no reason to think it has to be ratified within 30 days judging by §6 alone. I helped explain the intended meaning with "Until such ratification", but the original really says:
    So long as it is not ratified, it is considered valid!
     
  4. Carfer

    Carfer Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Right, the information will remain top-secret even if the Minister doesn't approve the classification within that period of 30 days (actually meaning that it will remain top-secret forever unless the Minister specifically downgrades the classification to something down the scale). This period of 30 days is what we call a 'prazo ordenador', which, unlike a 'prazo peremptório', still allows the exercise of the right outside it's time frame. The 'prazo ordenador' is precribed only for the sake of controlling the march of the proceedings and avoiding undue delays.
    Information that has been classified as top-secret has to remain as such until the Minister formally disavows such classification and, due to its nature, its validity cannot be subject to bureaucratic delays. Otherwise, it could become public and endanger national security or whatever it is deemed to protect.
     
  5. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    I'm not so sure, Carlos, because this law is all about restricting the government's right to classify information as top secret/secret. Only a limited number of authorities are allowed to classify the information as (top) secret and even then the classification has to be ratified within 30 days in order to remain top secret/secret (at least that's how i interpret it).
     
  6. LuizLeitao

    LuizLeitao Senior Member

    São Paulo, Brazil
    Portuguese
    William,

    I understand that the minister must ractify the classification within 30 days, but (and this is not rare down here in Brazil) if this does not happen that classification will remain valid until the minister decides to do so. We're used to these things; very often even MPs usually delay voting legal matters.
     
  7. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    It's hard to understand out of context but this law (http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/_ato2011-2014/2012/Decreto/D7724.htm) is all about preventing abuse of secrecy by the government. Section 5 says "A classificação de informação no grau ultrassecreto pelas autoridades previstas nas alíneas “d” e “e” do inciso I do caput deverá ser ratificada pelo Ministro de Estado, no prazo de trinta dias." Why would section 6 suddenly say, "But what the hell, even if it's not ratified it will still be top secret forever :) That wouldn't prevent abuse at all.
     
  8. LuizLeitao

    LuizLeitao Senior Member

    São Paulo, Brazil
    Portuguese
    Exactly: "deverá", must, but if the minister decides to "engavetar" ("put in a draw", deliberately delay sth) the text, nothing will happen to him. In our lengthy Constitution there are dozens of articles which should have been regulated decades ago... You got it? If the gov't wants it to remain classified forever, or for a couple of years more, all it has to do is "engavetar" the text of the law.
     
  9. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    But that's precisely what this law is trying to prevent.
     
  10. LuizLeitao

    LuizLeitao Senior Member

    São Paulo, Brazil
    Portuguese
    Sure. That's what they say, but maybe not their actual intention...
     
  11. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    I don't know how sincere they are, but I just found this passage that supports my interpretation:
    § 3 - As informações classificadas no grau ultrassecreto e secreto não reavaliadas no prazo previsto no caput serão consideradas, automaticamente, desclassificadas.

    :
    § 3 - Any information classified as top secret or secret that is not reevaluated by the appointed time stipulated in the main paragraph shall automatically be considered declassified.
     
  12. Carfer

    Carfer Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Portuguese - Portugal


    Sorry, I was not aware of the scope of the law because I actually misread your initial post (I reasoned as if these provisions were intended to protect sensitive information on the economic and security fields, not to insure transparency of information). In that new light, I interpret the law as establishing that the Minister must confirm ('ratificar') the classifcation within 30 days, otherwise the classification will become invalid. So, you are definitely right. Anyway, I didn't read the whole law, and the interpretation of isolated commands of a law without taking into account the whole decree (and actually without taking into account the whole Brazilian legal system, which is different in many ways from mine) is a risky business.
     
  13. Vanda

    Vanda Moderesa de Beagá

    Belo Horizonte, BRASIL
    Português/ Brasil
    Deverá in Brazilian law context means must. It is in the Manual of the Presidência laws are written either in the present or the future. Just to clarify about the term 'deverá', futuro do presente.
     
  14. Carfer

    Carfer Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Same in Portugal. 'Dever'= 'must' . 'Poder'= 'may'
     

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