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Espero que disfrutaras vs. hayas disfrutado (Subjunctive)

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by stella the student, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. stella the student New Member

    English-US
    Puedo escribir, "Espero que disfrutaras la junta" ? La junta pasó en el pasado, pero estoy preguntando en el presente. O debo decir, "Espero que disfrutaste la junta" ?

    Mil gracias
     
  2. Teena Senior Member

    Toronto
    Uzbekistan - Russian
    Creo que esta bien.
    o "Espero que hayas disfrutado la junta"
     
  3. VivaReggaeton88

    VivaReggaeton88 Senior Member

    Santa Ana, Costa Rica / New York, NY
    US/EEUU; English/Inglés
    Gramaticalmente, no es correcto usar el pasado subjuntivo después del presente.

    Espero que hayas disfrutado la junta:tick:
    Espero que disfrutaras la junta.:cross:
     
  4. Vikingo

    Vikingo Senior Member

    Oslo, Norway
    Norwegian
    ¿Tienes una cita que corrobore eso, VivaReggaeton88? He visto la misma afirmación en otros hilos, pero no me parece correcto.

    Saludos :)
     
  5. xymox Senior Member

    Barcelona, Spain
    English, French - Canada
    Correcto, no se puede hacer referencia al pasado de esta manera en el futuro, en castellano. Que sepa yo, ahora que me demuestren el contrario.
     
  6. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Modómano, 'mano

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    Hi,
    Although, for some reason, the sentence "Espero que disfrutaras la junta." doesn't sound that awkward to me, the following are some correct doubt-free coordinations:

    Espero que disfrutes la junta. –> present indic. + present subjn.
    Espero que hayas disfrutado la junta. –> this subjunctive comes in perfect past form since it refers to a past action relevant in the present moment. Note that "hayas" is present subjunctive, so there is coordination indeed.
    Esperaba que disfrutases/-aras la junta. –> imperfect indic. + imperfect subjn.
    Esperé que disfrutaras/-aras la junta. –> past indic. + imperfect. subjn.

    Bye :)
     
  7. xymox Senior Member

    Barcelona, Spain
    English, French - Canada
    "Esperaba que disfrutaras" sounds ok to me: I was hoping you would enjoy...
    but not in the present tense "Espero...."
     
  8. caniho Senior Member

    Andalusian Spanish
    Hi, first of all and before you get confused, you need to know that there is not a simple answer to your question, it depends a lot of on the kind of Spain you speak. What I'm going to say applies only to Spain.

    Here we would say 'espero que disfrutaras de la junta' if 'la junta' is in the past, for example last week, last month, last year or even earlier. On the other hand, 'espero que hayas disfrutado de la junta' is also possible if 'la junta' has just finished or has been the last 'junta' we have held and we decide to speak of it as something still recent.

    It seems that you are studying some kind of Latin American Spanish though, so wait for someone from there. For example, Milton Sand wrote:

    But he didn't write about what relevant in the present moment is, or what would be said in case it was not relevant.

    Finally, about those non native speakers saying 'disfrutaras' is wrong or doesn't sound well, all I can say is wow!, I wish so much I had an intuition about what is wrong English!
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2008
  9. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Modómano, 'mano

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    Hi again,
    Maybe Caniho didn't noticed it, but he actually did a good job on clarifying this "relevance" :thumbsup::
    By the way, "junta" refers to a decisive business meeting, and more general "reunión" joins some people to interact (meeting, gathering, party, reunion, etc.). I say this because is kind of curious to enjoy a "junta".

    Bye ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2008
  10. jmx

    jmx Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Spain / incorrect Spanish
    In Spain, the difference is analogous to the use of the Past Perfect / Preterite for the indicative:

    Espero que disfrutaras la junta. -> "la junta" took place quite a while ago, in a period not related to the present.

    Espero que hayas disfrutado la junta. -> "la junta" took place recently, or at least in a period of time that continues into the present (this week, this month, etc.).

    Anyway, there are differences in this point between Spain And Latin America.
     
  11. NewdestinyX

    NewdestinyX Senior Member

    PA, USA|Do work in Spain
    American English
    As has been discussed in many threads on this forum -- Espero que disfrutaras......etc.. - "didn't used to be" technically correct. The RAE disallowed such time concordance mismatches (in dependent clauses) in the grammar for most of the 20th century. But over the last 20 years they have become more lenient on the issue due to the differences in Peninsular versus Latin American usage and the natural tendency to note the conundrum in the SPanish language of no 'preterite' in the subjunctive mood.

    The Present Perfect tense somehow seems strange to use for a finite past event. In recent years the Grammars are basically silent on the issue. Though if you ask most people over 40 (in Spain or Latin America)--- they would never use 'disfrutaras' after Espero que.. It's not what they were taught in school. Today I still do not believe the grammar books in grade school in Spanish speaking countries teach the use of the Imperfect Subjunctive as correct in those situations. But the DPD is silent on the issue. At least I haven't found it yet.

    Students learning Spanish are encouraged to say --
    Espero que hayas disfrutado -- as it will be understood anywhere in the Spanish speaking world.

    Grant
     
  12. manicha Senior Member

    Spanish/Galician - Spain
    I think that Spanish native speakers do not learn as much grammar as foreign speakers do. I was never, never, never taught, in school, high school or university, which combinations are good and which should be avoided. We simply do not learn that in school, we learn it by everyday practice. And my practice is the same that Caniho's: if the junta was today or is relevant today, I may say "hayas disfrutado". In any other case, I would use "disfrutaras".
    As for "disfrutaras/hayas disfrutado", you can use "disfrutar" as a transitive verb. But, as an educated native speaker, I would say "Espero que disfrutaras DE la junta". And it seem that "Diccionario panhispánico de dudas", agrees with me.
    disfrutar. 1. Cuando significa ‘sentir placer a causa de algo’ es normalmente intransitivo y se construye con un gerundio, o con un complemento introducido por de o con, que expresa la causa del disfrute: «Disfruta mirando ese mar enfurecido» (Vázquez Narboni [Esp. 1976]); «Farnesio y él irían a acompañarlo para [...] disfrutar del clima sano» (UPietri Visita [Ven. 1990]); «Disfrutó con la comprobación de saberse protegido» (Andrade Dios [Arg. 1993]). También es válida la construcción transitiva, con el sentido de ‘obtener placer [de algo]’: «Disfruté la compañía» (Boullosa Duerme [Méx. 1994]).
    2. Con el significado de ‘tener algo bueno o placentero’ puede ser transitivo: «Desde que concibió la idea de construirlos, ya no disfrutaba ningún momento de sosiego» (Aguilera Pelota [Ec. 1988]); o, más comúnmente, intransitivo, con un complemento introducido por de: «Yo disfrutaba de todos los lujos» (Hernández Secreter [Esp. 1995]).

    Diccionario panhispánico de dudas ©2005
    Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2008
  13. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    I have no quotes, and nothing other than the faith in what I was taught in Latin (not Spanish) lessons at school, known as the Sequence of Tenses, and until recently, I've always found it applicable to Spanish and other Romance Languages too. This sequence makes it impossible to combine a main clause present, present perfect or future with a subordinate imperfect or past perfect (pluperfect in those times) I may not be up to date!
     
  14. NewdestinyX

    NewdestinyX Senior Member

    PA, USA|Do work in Spain
    American English
    You can imagine though the conundrum to the native speaking ears of not having a past wording that sounds 'preterite' for such things.

    In English we would find it very strange to say:

    I hope that you have liked the movie (for a movie seen 'last night').

    In the ears of some native Spanish speakers the 'present perfect' is just as 'unacceptable'. They want, as it were, their version of 'I hope that you liked the movie'

    The Spanish language has no problem saying.
    Recuerdo que te gustó.......

    That mixture of present + simple past is fine. So 'sequence of tense' is only a concept governing 'dependent clauses' - and in dependent clauses often the subjunctive is required and there is no 'preterite subjunctive' only an 'imperfect subjunctive'.

    Grant
     
  15. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    Good argument, and at times I've had my own problems expressing something like your example "I hope you liked the movie". I help to the best of my knowledge, but love to be corrected if I'm wrong, and challenged, if there's doubt. Many thanks, NewdestinyX
     
  16. neal41 Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA, English
    I agree that it sounds strange but I think the reason is that *"I have liked the movie." sounds strange. "I hope that you have seen the movie." is OK as is "I hope that you saw the movie."

    A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish by Butt and Benjamin says, "Despite the claims of many traditional grammars, there are no rigid rules of tense agreement between main and subordinate clauses, but the following patterns are the most usual combinations:"

    One of the patterns is present indicative in the main clause + imperfect subjunctive in a subordinate clause. "Es imposible que lo dijera."
     
  17. stella the student New Member

    English-US
    Nunca pense que iba recibir tantas respuestas! Les agradezco mucho y creo que voy a aprender mucho de ustedes!

    Una cosa mas, uso "junta" porque mis companeras de trabajo son mexicanas y dicen "junta" en vez de "reunion". Pero, posiblamente no es correcto. Gracias!!!
     
  18. NewdestinyX

    NewdestinyX Senior Member

    PA, USA|Do work in Spain
    American English
    Yes, Neal. I've read Butt&Benjamin cover to cover several times. But amongst grammarians, and they are 'descriptive grammarians' they are the only ones that make the claim. They should have said that "In practice/application there really are no rigid rules...." Among the prescriptive grammarians there are still many who hold pretty tightly to time concordance. Though I agree that a student should learn that this is said by the masses. I don't believe a student should imitate it though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2008
  19. Vikingo

    Vikingo Senior Member

    Oslo, Norway
    Norwegian
    As a member of the unwashed masses, the bewildered herd, the less capable of men, I'd very much like to see an actual quote from one or more of your highly respected grammarians on this issue, Grant :p.

    Keep in mind that we're talking about present indicative in the main clause + imperfect subjunctive in a subordinate clause, not a general viewpoint on whether or not los tiempos verbales should somehow make sense in a phrase.

    Saludos :)
     
  20. Marcela Senior Member

    Montevideo
    Spanish - Río de la Plata
    Cito: Andrés BELLO, Gramática de la lengua castellana destinada al uso de los americanos, cuando se refiere al subjuntivo común y da ejemplos con significado pretérito, dice:
    Fundase o fundara:
    indicativo: Muchos... afirman que Rómulo fundó a Roma.
    subjuntivo: Hoy no se tiene por un hecho auténtico que Rómulo fundase o fundara a Roma.

    Pero después, en # 657 dice:
    ¿Podría emplearse el ante-presente haya cantado como mero pretérito? ¿Podría decirse, v. gr., "Es dudoso que Marco Antonio haya sido un hombre disoluto y abandonado como Cicerón lo pinta"? Creo que el uso tolera esta práctica, por opuesta que parezca a la correspondencia que he manifestado entre el subjuntivo común y el indicativo, según la cual ... debería decirse: "Es dudoso que M.A. fuese o fuera, y no haya sido". (negritas mías).

    O sea, ya en el siglo XIX este uso ya era aceptado en la América de Bello.

    Sorry for the explanation in Spanish. Hope it helps and I strongly recommend reading Bello's Gramática.
     
  21. NewdestinyX

    NewdestinyX Senior Member

    PA, USA|Do work in Spain
    American English
    Sure. I will wrote you what Emilio Alarcos of the RAE has to say about it. And also I have several consultas from the RAE members themselves where you can ask them online. And they are the ones that have said concordance of time is still obsevered. Now that the last one I received is from before the writing of the DPD in 2005. My last one is 2003 or so. So finding those emails (though I keep most all emails) will be tricky. But let me show you what I have. The DPD has changed things a lot. And listen -- why don't I make a consulta to the RAE now. I'll write it up and post it back here when they respond. Usually about 3 days.

    Grant
     

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