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Etymology: φλιτζάνι, fincan, فنجان

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Nikola, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. Nikola Senior Member

    English
    φλιτζάνι Greek,fincan Turkish,فنجان Arabic and Persian
    Does anybody know the etymology, which language is the origin of this word? Arabic and Persian=finjan
     
  2. Chazzwozzer

    Chazzwozzer Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    The origin of the word is not Turkish and not possibly Greek, either. Turkish fincan must have been borrowed from either Arabic or Persian. The etymology dictionary doesn't suggest the certain origin. It, however, says pingān in Persian means bowl.
     
  3. linguist786 Senior Member

    Blackburn, England
    English, Gujarati & Urdu
    Well what does it mean, first of all?
     
  4. ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    A coffee cup
     
  5. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    According to my dictionary, finjan is Persian, but -- and this is a wild guess -- the Persian word pingân seems to suggest the form 'finjan' is a reloan from Arabic, following the pattern P. Parsi > Ar. Farsi > P. Farsi.
    This Greek dictionary gives 'αραβ.' for φλιτζάνι.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  6. ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    I have just checked it and found "Finjan" is Arabized from "bincan/Pincan".
     
  7. Nikola Senior Member

    English
    Thanks everyone so it is Persian/Farsi.
     
  8. Spectre scolaire Senior Member

    Moving around, p.t. Turkey
    Maltese and Russian

    If there is a Pers. word ‘finjan”, this rather seems to suggest a Rückwanderer from Turkish – not from Arabic.

    Here is a possible scenario:

    You’ll find pingân in a Persian dictionary with the meaning of (both) “a bowl”.and “a cup”. Since there is no /p/ phoneme in Arabic, it was substituted by Arabic /f/ [cf. Hebrew פלשתינה[Pleshet] > Greek Παλαιστίνη > Latin Palestina > Arabic Falastīn], and the palatalized Persian [g’] being necessarily realized, according to Arabic phonology, as [dzh] [cf. the English j sound as in “just”], Pers. pingân became in Arab. the exact correspondance of the Turkish form fincan which (of course) is a loan from Arabic. [Turkish c is the letter used to denote Eng. j]. In Turkish you also find fıncan (due to word-internal vowel harmony) and filcan, the [l] form being a Turkish development, cf. the Arabic Rückwanderer فلجان! As there are thousands of loanwords from Turkish in Modern Persian, it is not unlikely that a word فنجان might be among them. The Greek word is a loan from Turkish, cf. φλιτζάνι, the metathesis being a Greek development. The non-metathesized form φιλτζάνι also exists in Greek, but is less common. The writing φλυτζάνι is often seen – clearly a hellenization of the word [the letter υ, although pronounced as , being considered as something typically Greek].

    After this diaphragmatic exercise I wonder when we’ll see a pay-back of all these cultural loans...:D
     
  9. Qcumber Senior Member

    UK English
    Finjan, in its various adaptations to local phonologies, is found as far as South-East Asia and East Africa, which tells a lot about the success of Persian chinaware over a vast area.
     
  10. divinelight

    divinelight Junior Member

    Lund, Sweden
    russian
    Could you please give more examples of Turkish words in Modern Persian, cuz I always thought it was the other way around, i.e. there's a lot of Persian words in Turkish language.
     
  11. jazyk Senior Member

    Brno, Česká republika
    Brazílie, portugalština
    Then Polish has something similar: filiżanka.
     
  12. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    There is no 'if' in this part of the story, Persian does have فنجان.
    It might be a possible scenario indeed.
    But nothing in the scenario suggests that a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic.


    I know a few Turkish words in Persian, but this is the first time I read about 'thousands' of them. I am curious about those vast amounts of Turkish words in Persian.


    Don't let e.g. France wait too long for the payback of all the loans in Turkish from French :). Nah, seriously, the idea of loanwords being 'cultural loans' strikes me as quite odd.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  13. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Greece had been a part of the Turkish Empire for 400 years. So a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic since Greeks borrowed Arabic words via Turkish, not directly from arabian deserts, Nah ?
     
  14. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    We can only talk about re-loans if the word originally would have been Greek, and I guess we all agree that this is not the case at all. So far, I think all the sources and members here agree that the original word was Persian pingân. I think we also agree that this Persian word entered Arabic, but since Arabic doesn't have /p/, the loanword in Arabic starts with an /f/.
    That the Greek word φλιτζάνι is a loan from Turkish (plus Greek changes) would be more than normal (though I start to wonder where the Polish word comes from).
    But I was not referring to the Turkish-Greek connection, but to the Persian > Arabic > (Turkish??) > Persian connection, as suggested by Spectre Scolaire in post #8.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  15. avok

    avok Senior Member

    OK, I see :)

    But the connection you mention may well be true... As Ottomans served coffe inside "fincans" maybe persians (our neighbours) were introduced (turkish) coffe with "fincans" and they started to use the word finjan along with pingan.... And maybe they use the word finjan solely for the bowl out of which they drink turkish coffee and use pingan as a general word for all kind of bowls... If that is the case then it is definitely Persian > Arabic > Turkish > Persian

    Groetjes :)
     
  16. Spectre scolaire Senior Member

    Moving around, p.t. Turkey
    Maltese and Russian

    If you borrow a cultural practice – it could be anything from religion to tea drinking, weaponry to clothing – you often borrow the word with which the new concept is associated, or you make a new word in your own language that translates the concept, a so-called calque. You may dislike cultural loans, but unless you live in a tub like Diogenes, you can hardly avoid social and linguistic conventions resulting from interaction between cultures.

    I don’t think your fellow countryman Louis Deroy says anything about Diogenes, but he does say a lot about loanwords in general. L’emprunt linguistique is still a good read even if the book is 50 years old.

    There are cases in which cultural loans are frowned upon because they generated in a culture which is considered to be inferior. But ordinary people don’t think in such terms. “Inferiority” is often invented in hindsight; the important thing is what counts as prestigious at the time of the “borrowing”.


    The standard work to consult would be Gerhard Doerfer: Türkische und Mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen, Wiesbaden 1960-1975 – in four volumes!

    Admittedly, φλιτζάνι is not an easy treat from an etymological point of view!:)
     
  17. divinelight

    divinelight Junior Member

    Lund, Sweden
    russian
    I asked a friend who is a native Farsi speaker, and he said that he usually says "funjan" insted of "finjan", and the word is used for "a cup" not necessarily a Turkish coffee cup.
     
  18. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    Yes, and?
    I don't understand the point of, nor the reason for this little lecture on loan words very well.


    And what does Doerfer say about it?

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  19. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Yes but we generally drink a cup of "coffe" :) but not a "bowl" of coffee... What does he use "pingan" for ?
     
  20. divinelight

    divinelight Junior Member

    Lund, Sweden
    russian
    I didn't mention "bowl" at all:) I don't think he uses "pingan" either.
     
  21. divinelight

    divinelight Junior Member

    Lund, Sweden
    russian
    Let's not forget the Ottoman influence in the Balkans and Central Europe, after all they did come all the way to Vienna (though that was the end of their European expansion).
     
  22. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi
    Too many may's and maybe's in this story to account for the definitely in your conclusion, imho. The Turkish word may well be an Arabo-Persian loan...

    To round it up: this part is clear, I think:
    1. Persian > Arabic

    The next part(s) of the scenario can all be true too, they are all possible:
    2a (Persian >) Arabic > Persian and (Persian >) Arabic > Turkish
    or
    2b (Persian >) Arabic > Turkish > Persian
    or
    2c (Persian >) Arabic > Persian > Turkish

    In this Turkish etymological dictionary I found data which don't favour 2c.
    What I found in (off-line) Persian dictionaries doesn't suggest scenario 2b.

    Any which way, there are so many possible scenarios, and so far I didn't read one solid argument in favour one of them, only a suggestion that 2a is the most proper one.
    Nevertheless, my sense for a well-constructed argument (without suggestions and without 'maybe's ) is still bigger than my curiosity :).


    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  23. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Yes but this was not solely for you :) Because other respondants said that "finjan" in Persian means "bowl" and it is derived from (old?) Persian pingan and finjan is merely its Arabian version...But if Persians use finjan to mean a "cup" and not a bowl than it must be a coffe cup :confused: introduced to Persians by the Turks (Ottomans) ...

    In Turkish we use "fincan" just for a coffee/tea cup, not for a bowl but Persian pingan simply means a bowl as acclaimed by other respondants. So all I need to know is
    1- whether Persian pingan is still in use if so what it means
    2- or finjan replaced pingan ?
    3- and what do modern Persians use to mean a bowl

    If I can get the answers than I shall be happy :)
     
  24. avok

    avok Senior Member

    God, you are being like a lawyer :eek: You all bolded my "maybe"s but did not even touch my "if " I said "If that is the case then it is definitely."

    For instance
    "If he is belgian then he definitely knows that the capital of Belgium is Brussels. Maybe he is not good at geography or maybe he does not like history so he may not know that the capital is Brussels"

    Maybe you should be the editor of this forum , I would definitely vote for you :)
     
  25. divinelight

    divinelight Junior Member

    Lund, Sweden
    russian
    Now I see your argument, it makes sense and it's quite possible but there also might be a possibility that the word "pingan" (or "finjan" as re-loaned from Arabic) could have just changed its meaning with time. So now the word "pingan" in a sense of "a bowl" might be archaic. Like the word uşak in old Turkish means a child and some people still use it in that sense, but with time in conventional Turkish it came to mean a servant.
     
  26. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Yes, divinelight you are right, that was what I meant right from the beginning :idea:
     
  27. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    - No, it must not be a coffee cup. I don't see a reason for this coffee idée fixe :)
    فنجان (1 in Persian means porcelain dish, tea or coffee cup.
    'Coffee' nor 'tea' are the keywords here, but porcelain (as already suggested by QCumber). The Iranians I asked today all agreed upon the material, viz. porcelain. As far as I understand them, it has nothing to do with what is in the cup. So, no link between Turkish and persian via the coffee. Now, unless somebody would come up with Turkish porcelain... but anyway.
    2) پنگان in Persian means bowl, cup, etc. I also asked a few native speakers, and none of them recognized it.


    Apparantly, it is not used anymore, though I'd love to hear the Persian speakers-members on this word.

    كاس is used for any kind of bowl in Persian. Other words can be found here.
    Otherwise said, pingan was not replaced by fincan.



    Groetjes,

    Frank

    PS I found the meaning of the older word pingan in this dictionary.
     
  28. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,

    Nah, I am just reacting like somebody who is not influenced by rethoric tricks involving "maybe", "maybe", "possibly", "if" (which I overlooked, indeed) and a definite conclusion on the basis of a strong love for Turkish, or for coffee, or for Turkish coffee .
    I still don't see a solid argument in the Turkish coffee thing, or in the re-loan to Persian via Turkish... Or maybe I simply don't understand it.

    In short, I still don't see a solid argument for "2b (Persian >) Arabic > Turkish > Persian". And maybe (possibly) I am wrong, but I preferto be convinced by sound arguments...

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  29. avok

    avok Senior Member

    Believe me, my love for Brazilian samba and cappuccino is much stronger than Turkish coffee :)
     
  30. MarcB Senior Member

    US English
    see this thread كاس kas and finjan فنجان are discussed in Arabic.
     
  31. mkh Banned

    Iran, Farsi
    Hi
    پنگان was a timer like hourglass, the differences are: pengan doesn't use sand, but uses water and has one bulb with one hole at its bottom, as Dehkhoda says:
    پنگان:
    كاسه اي مسي كه ته آن سوراخ داشت و دهقانان در گذشته از آن براي تعيين مدت زمان استفاده از آب چشمه يا قنات استفاده مي كردند. به اين طريق كه اين كاسه را روي ظرفي از آب قرار مي دادند، مدت زمان پر شدن اين كاسه ، فرصت استفاده هر دهقان از آب چشمه يا قنات بود
    پنگان is not used currently in most of cities in Iran.
    but فنجان is made from porcelain or glass, and uses for drinking tee, coffee, milk, etc. it is Arabic form of پنگان as Dehkhoda says:
    فنجان:
    معرب پنگان . از يوناني پنتاکس . پياله کوچک سفالين ، بلورين يا چيني که در آن چاي يا قهوه خورند
     
  32. Asgaard Junior Member

    usa, english
    Hi,
    I've found Albanian teacup is filxhan. (vis-a-vis Polish "filiżanka").
    Serbo-Croatian - plehan
    Czech - plechovka


    Blik, Blek, Blikken - appear in Germanic languages as Tin or Can/Cup...


    Tin/Can/Cup(er) - (Sn) vs (Cu)

    German - zinn

    Could τζάνι be Tin (S_tanium?- Sn)?
    And φλιτζάνι - blikkpláta (sheet metal, tin plate (flat)) or τζάνι_φλιτ)

    Regards,
    Asgaard
     
  33. Sheikh_14 Senior Member

    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Knowing how finjan is pronounced in arabic could you kindly tell how it is in Turkish. Is it fin-can or fin-jan as well.
     
  34. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    The Turkish form filcan explains the origin of the Polish form filiżanka, as coming from this Turkish word (with c pronounced as English j). The j sound /dʒ/ becomes regularly a ż /ʒ/ in Polish after vowels. The ending -ka is a Polish diminutive suffix. The word was imported in the times when the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth had a common border with Turkey (as it included Ukraine). Polish has quite many loanwords from Turkish, and many Poles spoke fluent Turkish in the XVII century (for example the king John III).
    The connection with Czech plechovka is unlikely, and unnecessary.
     
  35. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Is this the same word (pardon my attempt at typing Hebrew):

    האש מהבהבת
    שירה מלבלבת
    סובב לו סובב הפינג'אן

    ? (From the context, it seems to mean coffeepot, not cup or bowl.)
     
  36. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    In turkish c is pronounced ج
    I think in old egyptian films, it is called a fingal. But maybe it's just 'random' letter switching.
    it can't be originally arabic at any rate.
     

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