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fällt dazu ... aus der Sprache heraus

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    "Im weitern Sinne des Wortes Kategorie bildet freilich die Quantität oder die Zahl eine Klasse für sich und fällt dazu, wie ich öfter dargelegt habe, aus der Sprache heraus, weil Zahlen keine Begriffe sind."

    I suppose it is "die Quantität fällt dazu aus der Sprache heraus".

    I'm having trouble capturing the meaning of "fällt dazu". As to "aus der Sprache heraus", I could understand it as "it arises/ it is inferred from language", but if he justifies that "Zahlen keine Begriffen sind", I don't know if this contradicts that interpretation (it arises/ it is inferred from language), or, on the contrary, he is opposing language (grammar) X concepts (understanding, reason)...


    I appreciate your help, maybe this is not even complicated, but the combination is tricky to me.
     
  2. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Your analysis is wrong. It is not fällt dazu and aus der Sprache heraus but it is fällt aus der Sprache heraus and dazu is an inserted adverb. Quantität... fällt aus der Sprache heraus means quantity drops out of language, i.e. language cannot/does not(?) handle it because language handles concepts and numbers aren't concepts (weil Zahlen keine Begriffe sind). The adverb dazu means in addition, on top.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  3. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I see!
    The only thing I was reading correctly was "aus der Sprache heraus" as "to stay out of language", but I completely mixed the terms of this "out staying"...

    Many thanks, bernf!
     
  4. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    and also lapses out of language


    I must have been very slow. :)
     
  5. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    I don't think lapse is the right verb here. It has one of two alternative connotations compared to drop: either that it is a fault or shortcoming or it is a gradual process. The latter connotation certainly doesn't apply here so we are left with the former. Considering it as a shortcoming of language would be an obvious conclusion. But this conclusion isn't drawn here and shouldn't slip in through the back door.
     
  6. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    But do you see a significant difference between "drop out" and "stay out" too?
     
  7. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Yes of course. Drop out = previously in - now out; stay out = previously out - now out.

    Previously
    means here before science managed to reduce (certain) qualities to quantities.
     
  8. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Yes, of course. But the "previously in, now out" is rhetorical: if numbers are not concepts, they have never been concepts... The thing doesn't change, what changes is the scientific / philosophical interpretation.
     
  9. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    You're right. I was thinking along the lines of something that has lapsed out of public awareness.
     
  10. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    I see.
     
  11. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Language does not relate to things but to ideas about things and those ideas did indeed change. Redness was previously a concept, i.e. a quality, and is now the label of a value of the quantity wave length (=in the 700 nm range).

    EDIT: Accepted. See #13 below.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  12. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    What if Mauthner's formulating in the affirmative (fällt aus der Sprache heraus) what would otherwise be formulated ex negativo: fällt nicht in (den Bereich der) Sprache? This kind of fallen is not so much a previously in/now out thing but rather a categorisation: Was nicht in eine bestimmte Kategorie fällt, war nie drin.

    Mightn't a speaker say, Das behandle ich nicht, da es aus dem Rahmen meines Vortrags herausfällt, ​without it having ever been within that frame?
     
  13. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    So you would say it has a stative meaning, something like is outside the realm of language. You convinced me.:)
     
  14. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    That's exactly what I was thinking too: "outside the realm/ scope of language"! :)
     
  15. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    Yes. We might even preserve fallen: Quantity also falls outside of language.
     

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