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Far fare qualcosa a qualcuno

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by Alxmrphi, Mar 19, 2006.

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  1. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    on LSP's advice I am opening up a new thread to get to the bottom of this.

    far fare = to make to make ? I know it isn't but ahhh, this is going to annoy me so much now.
     
  2. **ellie** Senior Member

    Italy, Forlì
    Italian-Italy
    To make someone make/do..
    i.e.: I made him do the shopping for me; I'll make you make a mistake!
     
  3. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Alfry gave me these great examples for farsi+infinito once, they really helped:

    lo farò fare a lui per te- I'll have him do that for you
    fatti dare una penna da Mark = try to make Mark give you a pen
    è difficile farsi amare dagli altri = it's difficult to make others love you
    mi sono fatto dare gli spiccioli da lei - I made her give me the change.
     
  4. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Oh that's so confusing. I'll tackle it line by line

    lo farò fare a lui per te- I'll have him do that for you


    the Io looks a lot like lo there.
    What part of this sentence represents "that"
    "I will make make to him for you"
    also curious about the order of the words?
     
  5. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    It is confusing!

    But it is "L" (funny that should confuse you in a post of mine, since everyone mistakes me for Isp when it's Lsp)! The "lo" in this case is the "it" or "that" you're having him do for you. The "io" is implied in the "farò."
     
  6. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Erm,

    it I will make make to him for you
    [word re-order machine]
    I will make it make to him for you
    [common sense machine]
    I will make him make it for you
    [further one]
    I will make him do it for you
    [Italian politeness machine where "make" translates as "have done"]
    I will have him do it for you

    One question, as "it" / "lo" is so far at the end of the English sentence, why is it the first part of the Italian one?
     
  7. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    I'm at a loss to explain this, but I'll take the opportunity to answer this and other comments you've made that also left me scratching my head at times. But it won't satisfy you, I'm afraid. The only explanation is that Italian is not a version of English spoken in Italy, it's a different language. English didn't come first and then they got it wrong when they invented the Italian version of it! There is no reason why the word at the beginning of an English sentence should also be at the beginning of an Italian one. When you first started learning, it was probably difficult to remember that Italian uses an article more often, or a pronoun less often than English, or that we don’t have formal and informal verb conjugations. Mai means ever and never, ospite means guest and host. The list of differences is longer than just why a word is at the beginning in English and at the end in Italian. It's not "annoying" or "backwards" or "convoluted." It's just different. Different rules, constructions, words, expressions...

    Sorry, that's the best explanation I can come up with. :)
     
  8. moodywop Banned

    Southern Italy
    Italian - Italy
    Alex

    I gave you a few examples of this structure in this post:

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=696575&postcount=5

    It is undoubtedly a difficult construction for English speakers. The best thing is to study lots of examples.

    The verb following "fare" can have an active or a passive meaning. In English it's obvious when it's passive since you use a past participle:

    Make her work harder = falla lavorare di più

    Have it (the car) fixed = falla riparare

    As if that weren't bad enough "fare" can mean both "make sb do sthg" and "let sb do sthg":

    Fallo studiare! = Make him study (persuade/force him to study)

    Dai! Fallo studiare! = Come on! Let him study (don't distract him)

    Intonation and context would dispel any ambiguity
     
  9. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    I understood most of your post surprisingly moodywop, but for this line :

    As if that weren't bad enough "fare" can mean both "make sb do sthg" and "let sb do sthg":

    ? what do the bold letters mean?

    The post, I understood, but it's fare fare, or far fare, what is it's "general" meaning?

    [Edit]
    Is it a good suggestion to (when I stumble upon these words together) to, instead of looking right into it's twp meanings that I know, to just take a relaxed look and see the words as if they could mean anything, and then on a context, try to come up with an equivilent set of words in English and then post it here and see if I'm close?
     
  10. Willi

    Willi Senior Member

    Milano Italy
    Italy - Italian
    sb = somebody
    sthg = something
     
  11. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Proverò...

    let him go! -> go (andare->imperative familiar form = va)
    so... far farlo va! [yes I did notice your use of double l's, but I don't understand them so I am working how I would do it and hope the double L is explained]

    let him go!
    far farlo va!

    ..again..

    have them send her a bottle of red wine
    "make them send (to her) a bottle of red wine"
    Far fa (checks about appending 'loro' to an infinitive / then remembers its a DOP and not a DP) Far farli (make them?) send (to) her, I know two verbs that mean "to send", the only one springing to my mind is mandare so I'll use that. Far farli mandarle una bottiglia di vino bianco.

    Have them send her a bottle of red wine
    Far farli mandarle una bottiglia di vino bianco

    One more I will attempt..

    Have it sent to my office
    Far farlo è mandato (unsure about using è here, but I thought it might be needed for forming the past participle, but it's allready appended on the infinitive, so I'll put brackets around it) ufficio is masc sing so il mio is needed, and seeing as it's "to my" the contraction is al. dunque..

    Have it sent to my office
    Far farlo (è) mandato al mio ufficio
     
  12. Raphillon Senior Member

    Rome
    Italy
    Uhm... I'm afraid you didn't really understand...

    "Far fare" is an example of a more general rule:

    "Fare + infinitive"

    Which you can translate with the English

    "Have + objective"

    So if you have in English:
    Have Catherine make a good tea for me
    You can translate
    Fai fare a Catherine un buon the per me

    You can notice how the constuction is different:

    English = Have someone make (or do) something
    Italian = Far fare a qualcuno qualcosa

    Now, you can see that a rough word to word English translation sounds really odd: "Make make to someone something" but I hope you can now understand the logic behind it :)

    But naturally you are not limited to "Far fare" you can "Far mandare", "Far giocare", "Far comprare" and so on, the construction still remains and still keeps its logic, so in your examples:

    let him go!
    Fallo andare! (Fa (imperative=let) + lo (Him) andare (go); but "Lascialo andare" is more elegant )

    have them send her a bottle of red wine
    Falle mandare da loro una bottiglia di vino rosso (Fa (imperative) + le (to Her) mandare (send) da loro (from them) una bottiglia di vino rosso (a bottle of red wine) )

    And so on.

    I hope I have been helpful.
    Ciao.
     
  13. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    You have been extremely helpful!

    I thought Far Fare was, as I think I can pull a quote where I got confused...

    So from this I thought Far Fare meant "to make someone do something"
    I will have two more goes at this then..

    Have him write a biography of Beethoven
    Far farlo scrivere una biografia di Beethoven

    Have her get me a coffee
    Far Farla mi prende un caffè

    ?
     
  14. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Hi, I thought I would attempt the same explanation Raphillon gave, but maybe seeing it explained more ways than one will help clarify it.

    Far fare is to make someone make/do, as ellie told you.
    But the second fare = make/do.
    If you substiture that with another infinitive you get a different formula.
    To make someone leave/Far (+ pronoun) andare.
    Make him leave/Fallo andare.
    Make him write/Fallo scrivere.
    Make Catherine make me tea.
    Fai fare a Catherine un tè per me.
    Hope it helps. I told you, this one is tough. :)
     
  15. Raphillon Senior Member

    Rome
    Italy
    Alex, both your examples need only one "fare":

    Have him write a biography of Beethoven
    Fargli scrivere una biografia di Behetoven (Far (to have) + gli (him) scrivere (write) una biografia di Behetoven (a biography of Beethoven) )

    instead:
    Have him make a biography of Behetoven
    Far fare a lui una biografia di Behetoven



    Have her get me a coffee
    Farle prendere un caffè per me

    instead:
    Heve her make a coffee for me
    Far fare a lei un caffè per me


    I'm sorry I'm not able to understand the best way to make you understand... :(



    Edit: Sorry, lsp, I didn't see your post, you got the rule, anyway :)
     
  16. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    spero che ti ho capito.

    Have her write him a letter
    Farla scrivergli una lettera

    Have her make dinner
    Far Fare a lei pranzo

    Have him look for Frank
    Farlo cerco Frank

    Have him make a talble and chairs
    Far Fare a lui un tavolo e sedie.

    Far(pronoun) + infinitive = Have Pronoun Do Verb ?
    Far Fare a (disjunctive pronoun) = Have Pronoun Make/Do?

    Please can someone :tick: or :cross: my attempts.
     
  17. Alfry

    Alfry Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    Try to read them this way. Does this help?
     
  18. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Ughh I thought I had it then too.

    Okay a few clarifications, the objects taken here are indirect? as I can see, I was using direct. this "a lui/lei" thing seems to be big, I thought I could append the pronoun to the infinitive.

    Your Italian here :

    Is very confusing, for the sake of the understanding of the Far Fare structure, in the next examples, I will try, try lol, can the only corrections be of the error in the structure and not the quality of the sentence because I keep getting thrown off thinking course thinking that all other corrections are affecting the Far Fare.

    Have him make a list
    Far fare

    Oh I'm too confused to even try, none of Alfry's corrections even contain Far Fare, I haven't got a clue what is going on.

    Have him make a list
    Far Fare a lui una lista


    or is it

    Far Fargli una lista?


    I think if we stick with this one example till it is perfect, then it will be easier for me, instead of attempting 5 that I'm not sure of.

     
  19. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    Alex, in this case, append the indirect object to the imperative.

    Fagli fare una lista.
    Fatti spiegare la grammatica italiana. (yes, the double t is correct)

    Jana
     
  20. Alfry

    Alfry Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    Probably what is confusing you is that far fare are 2 identical verbs.

    The rule is general here.
    Far fare, far parlare, far preparare, far cercare and so on must abide by the same rule.

    Then,
    far fare a lui una lista = far+gli fare una lista
     
  21. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    so Far Fare was just an infinitive use saying "to make someone do something"
    when actually it never is FAR FARE used in a sentence because pronouns and things have to be added?

    Have him make a list
    Fagli fare una lista

    Have her do the washing up
    Falle fare lavare i piatti

    Have them make a biography of Beethoven
    Falli fare una biografia di Beethoven

    ?
     
  22. Alfry

    Alfry Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    You do not always have to use far fare but far + any other verb (infinitive)
     
  23. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    The red one is wrong. You will surely correct it yourself.

    Yes, you can have a sentence with "far fare" if you do not express the direct and the indirect object by pronouns.

    Jana
     
  24. Alfry

    Alfry Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    ;)

    Italians tend to use fare almost everywhere. I'm not saying we use fare in a wrong way, I'm just saying that fare is one of the most used verbs.

    In Jana's example:
    Voglio far dare la spiegazione da Alfry.... you might change dare la spiegazione with spiegare ->
    Voglio far spiegare da Alfry.

    As you can see, there's no far fare but far + infinitive verb.
     
  25. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    I understand why one of my "fare" has been removed, because to (correct me if I'm wrong) Have someone verbal-action it needs only one "fare", but if you want to say have someone make then you need two. Seeing as fare means to make/to do, I thought it would be the same if the meaning was "to do" and not "to make".

    SO

    Have him make a list
    Fagli fare una lista :tick:

    dunque...

    Have him make a chair
    Fagli fare una sedia

    Fagli = Have him
    fare = make

    ??

    Make him leave/Fallo andare. - capisco
    Make him write/Fallo scrivere. - capisco
    Make Catherine make me tea.
    Fai fare a Catherine un tè per me. - non capisco, perchè "Fai", e perchè non è "Have Catherine make me tea", ughhh questo is assurdo!
     
  26. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    Fai is the imperative of fare. :)

    Make Catherine make tea for me. - A more literal translation.

    Jana
     
  27. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Ok ok please please don't give up on me, I have a feeling I will get it soon.
    But first, can you write 5 examples of "Have him/her/you/them (verb)", 5 of "Have + pronoun + make + verb/noun" so I can see more examples, and where you think confusion might arrise, can you explain it, like the "fai is the imperative of fare" really helped me when I looked back.
     
  28. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Ok, I understood *most* of that (I had a feeling arise only had one 'r' aswel)
    except why you put Fa' (= fai) at the beginning of some.

    Attempting..

    " Fate i ragazzi scrivere i compiti.
    Non farmi imparare il francese, non mi piace questa lingua.
    Voglio farlo studiare di più."

    You make the boys write their achivements.
    I wont have to learn French, I don't like this language.
    I want to make him study more.

    That's gonna be so wrong.

    Anyway, what I think will really help me is a syntax rule.
    And I could get used to the patterns till it made sense.

    Can you give me one please :D
     
  29. coppergirl

    coppergirl Senior Member

    London, England
    USA/English
    Buona sera!

    From Alex Murphy's posts, am I right in thinking that it is correct to say in Italian, "Far fare a il mio marito un caffè per me"?

    Just checking . . .

    Grazie!
     
  30. Alfry

    Alfry Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    you might say either:
    Far fare a mio marito un caffè per me,
    or
    Farmi fare un caffè da mio marito, which I prefer
     
  31. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    E come si dice questo in inglese? non voglio provare dirlo! lo dirò sbagliato!
     
  32. coppergirl

    coppergirl Senior Member

    London, England
    USA/English
    Dear Alex,

    I am not as expert as many on this list, but when translating

    "Far fare a mio marito un caffè per me"

    I would translate it as, "Get my husband to make me a coffee"

    Because my Italian is at a basic level, I am not certain exactly why Alfry preferred, "Farmi fare un caffè da mio marito". However, I suspect it is because it seems to read with more fluidity than the first sentence because of the lack of the preposition "a", which seems to be a little awkward in the first sentence.

    It might help if you tried to think of the idea in English, rather than the words. In my case, I am coming at it from my knowledge of French, which is very similar to Italian. The downside of this is that I can understand more Italian than I can write or speak!

    I don't know if this helps, but I hope so. I also invite any native speakers or experts to correct any of this which may be incorrect.

    Ciao! ;)
     
  33. moodywop Banned

    Southern Italy
    Italian - Italy
    Coppergirl

    Actually you hit the nail on the head when you said that the second sentence "seems to read with more fluidity".

    However it's the "per me" that sounds clumsy. We normally attach pronouns to the verb unless emphasis or contrast require otherwise:

    Dammi il libro!

    Dallo a me, non a lui

    I'll try and give the sentence some context to show how it might be used:

    Mio marito è un pigrone. Non riesco neanche a fargli fare un/il caffè
    or Non riesco neanche a farmi fare un caffè da lui
     
  34. coppergirl

    coppergirl Senior Member

    London, England
    USA/English
    Grazie, Moodywop!

    Your examples were great - I especially found the "Dammi il libro" one useful because I am just studying this form of combined verb and pronoun, so it is very useful and I can recognise it when I am reading Italian sentences.

    Ciao!
     
  35. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    I have absolutely and totally lost it.

    moodywop, if I write a sentence in Italian can you tell me the translation word for word (I know the word order won't make any sense in English, but believe me, it could help)

    Far Fare a mio fratello un libro per me
    Far Fare a my brother a book for me

    just that part really, I want to know if the second Fare is the "to make" where it should say "Get my brother to make me a book", and what the first Far translates too.
     
  36. coppergirl

    coppergirl Senior Member

    London, England
    USA/English
    Actually, moodywop (or anyone out there),

    in Alex Murphy's sentence,

    "Far Fare a il mio fratello un libro per me"

    Do you need the "il" here before "mio fratello"? The reason I ask is that a new thread was begun last night on this subject (see "il mio bambino") and so I want to make sure I have the right idea here . . .

    Grazie!
     
  37. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Oh that's right, before immediate family members with no adjectives it isn't used is it?

    *goes back and removes it*
     
  38. ElaineG

    ElaineG Senior Member

    Brooklyn NY
    USA/English
    Well spotted, coppergirl. You are completely right.
     
  39. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    *Pulls on Elaine's arms to beg for an answer to his question*
     
  40. ElaineG

    ElaineG Senior Member

    Brooklyn NY
    USA/English
    Don't nag! But yes, you described the rule correctly!
     
  41. b2b

    b2b Senior Member

    Sempre meglio :)

    Ciao
     
  42. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    e per domani sera, si può scrivere dei esempi e dunque posso li provare
    "And for tomorrow evening, can someone writr some examples and then I can try them"

    Basically, what I want is some sentences (In English) that require Fare, and some that require Far Fare, let's say, about 6/7 examples, and I will have a go at them and see if I have learnt about how to use this assolutamente assurdo structure!!
     
  43. coppergirl

    coppergirl Senior Member

    London, England
    USA/English
    Buon giorno a tutti, e specialmente a Alex!;)

    Alex, if you wanted some sentences in English to try, that I think can do.

    I am also interested in this structure in Italian, although it would be useful if one of the native speakers might check these examples to see if they work properly in this structure. If any of the native speakers or moderators might provide better sentences than mine to translate, that would also be great!

    I suspect that these all might be suitable for the "Far Fare" structure in Italian, although, to be honest, as in English I expect there are probably more elegant structures that would lend themselves equally well to these translations in either language.

    All the same . . .

    1. "Get the nurse to make the patient some tea."

    2. "Get the children to make some ornaments for the Christmas tree."

    3. "Get Paola to make me one of her special bookmarks when she comes over later."

    4. "Get my husband to make me breakfast in bed, since it is Mother's Day."

    5. "Get James to make his bed before he goes to school!"

    6. "Get Elizabeth to make the dessert for me before the guests arrive."

    Again, because I am new here and my Italian is pretty basic, I am not saying that there is not a better way to translate these than the "far fare" structure, which I think is a little awkward in both English and Italian (this sort of thing always reads better with a subjunctive to me anyway, and I personally prefer to gently ask people to do things, rather than to start off with "Get so-and-so to do such-and-such!") as it is more polite.

    Still, it is the best I could do. Hope it helps. Any comments or clarifications from those "in the know" would be great!

    Ciao!:D
     
  44. moodywop Banned

    Southern Italy
    Italian - Italy
    Coppergirl
    I'm not going to translate your examples since Alex wanted some sentences for translation practice.

    Alex
    I think the trouble is that you're trying to bite off more than you can chew. This is meant as advice based on personal experience, not as a criticism. When I was learning English I found it best to tackle the simpler forms of a structure before going on to the more complex ones.

    I'll try and summarise the main uses of "far fare", starting with the simpler forms:

    1. Fai andare Luigi = Get Luigi to go
    Fallo andare = Get him to go
    Fai andare LUI, non ME (contrast)

    Fai lavare la macchina = Have the car washed
    Falla lavare = Have it washed

    2. Fai lavare la macchina a Paolo = Get Paolo to wash the car
    Fagli lavare la macchina = get him to wash the car
    Fagliela lavare = Get him to wash it
    Fattela lavare da lui = Get him to wash it for you

    I suggest you work on the simpler examples in 1. before tackling the more complicated pronoun combinations in 2.

    More examples, using different tenses:

    Hai fatto piangere Maria = you made Maria cry
    L'hai fatta piangere = you made her cry

    Ti farò licenziare = I'll have you fired

    Stalin fece uccidere Trotzki = Stalin had Trotsky killed
    Lo fece uccidere

    Non si è mai fatto corrompere = he has never allowed himself to be bribed

    Mi farò ridare i soldi = I'm going to get my money back
    Me li farò ridare

    OK, my break is over. Maybe someone could provide examples of uses I've missed.
     
  45. coppergirl

    coppergirl Senior Member

    London, England
    USA/English
    Moodywop,

    Actually, I think you are right! :eek: Point taken! Looking at all the ways you can express this concept in Italian, I think it is very complicated.

    Still, I would still be very glad to see what others say about this, as it is all very interesting.

    Cheers/ Grazie!:)
     
  46. Alfry

    Alfry Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    No, you don't have to put 'il' there.

    Fratello is a close relative (unlike bambino which is a general word),
    "Far Fare a mio fratello un libro per me" is ok
     
  47. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    Arrrgghh it's toooooooo complicated non conoscerò mai questo!!!!! (wonders if conoscere is irregular)
    I think I'm gonna re-write what you said moodywop and stick it on my wall so I'm constantly reminded of it.
     
  48. elleboro Senior Member

    Italy Italian
    I had a discussion with a friend who claims that the Italian phrase "farsi fare" can be translated by using a reflexive pronoun . e.g.
    1) She had herself a new dress made.
    2) I always have myself reproached
    3) Let yourself examined by a doctor.
    I have never seen this structure and I want to make sure whether it is grammatically correct.
     
  49. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    elleboro,
    (1) is OK. You could also more colloquially say "She got herself a new dress made".
    (2) is wrong, unless you actually want to be reproached - which is unlikely! Otherwise a simple passive - using the colloquial "to get" instead of "to be" - would be used.
    I get reproached
    (3) Here there are two possibilities:(a) "Get yourself examined by a doctor" or "Have yourself examined by a doctor"
    (b) If you use "let", it must be followed by the full 'naked' infinitive - whereas "get" and "have" (above) omit the "to be" and use only the past participle.
    "Let yourself be examined by a doctor".

    Hope this helps.
    Virgilio
     
  50. billioon Senior Member

    Italy - Italian
    Ciao
    effettivamente la prima mi suona davvero bene conoscendo il modo "capovolto" dell'inglese
    Io credo che sia corretto
     
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