Filho - names in Portuguese

Discussion in 'Português (Portuguese)' started by Ofelia M., Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    Hello, I have a question on names in Portuguese.

    Jose Alves Siqueira Filho is co-author with Elton Leme on a recent book. Apparently, in this case the Filho should be read like a 'Jr.' appended to the name of a person in this country. Can one always assume that Filho should be read the same way when it appears at the end of a name with no further demarcation (such as the comma that separates Jr. from the preceding name in English)?

    If so, are there Brazilian names that indicate a third generation of the same name (for example, in English, Tom Brown, III)?

    Thank you!

    Ofelia
     
  2. coolbrowne Senior Member

    Bethesda, MD - USA
    Português-BR/English-US bilingual
    Hi Ofelia M.
    Yes, that is correct. :thumbsup: (and then, Americans will call him Mr Phil-Ho ;))
    Yes. Taking your example: José Alves Siqueira Neto.

    Regards
     
  3. vf2000

    vf2000 Senior Member

    GRAN CANARIA
    Brasil, Português
    You can find a comma only at cientific references, such as:
    Siqueira Neto, José Alves...
    Siqueira Neto, J.A. ...
    Siqueira-Neto, José A. ...
    ...
     
  4. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    You guys are like the best, thank you. I have a couple of more questions then:

    Are Filho and Neto never used as last names? (It seems to me that I had seen that usage in Brazil, no?)

    and also, when the grandfather dies, does the Neto become Filho?
     
  5. uchi.m

    uchi.m Senior Member

    Redeeming limbo
    Brazil, Portuguese
     
  6. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    I'm sorry Uchi, I think my question was phrased in a confusing way and so I'm not sure I understand the answer

    Are Filho and Neto ever used as last names?

    thank you, Ofelia
     
  7. uchi.m

    uchi.m Senior Member

    Redeeming limbo
    Brazil, Portuguese
    No, Filho and Neto are never used as last names.
     
  8. coolbrowne Senior Member

    Bethesda, MD - USA
    Português-BR/English-US bilingual
    I cannot say "never" for professional reasons (I am a mathematician ;)) but the probability is zero:
    Two reasons:
    1. Neither is an established Portuguese family name.
    2. If either were used at the end of a name, fellow Portuguese speakers would inevitably read it as a generation qualifier, hence it would be a very unwise move to try to establish it as a bona-fide surname.
    In other news, so to speak, I don't mean to be picky but this use of comma is actually unrelated to the one mentioned in the original question:
    And, since that was brought up, the "<last>, <first>" pattern of listing names is much more widespread than reference lists.

    Regards
    ----------------------------------
    AHA! X-post com uchi.m
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  9. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    How about as first names?

    sort of like Junior can be used in the US as a first name
     
  10. coolbrowne Senior Member

    Bethesda, MD - USA
    Português-BR/English-US bilingual
    I supposed it's possible, but I have never seen that.
    I think we are entering The Twilight Zone ;), way beyond reasonable.

    Same here: not impossible, but unlikely:
    I've seen it used as a nickname, but never as somebody's given name
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  11. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    ok, I just did a quick Google search for filho + a Portuguese last name: "filho souza" and got a few hits for entries like "Filho Souza Filho"

    Can someone decipher names like these:

    Deocleciano Pereira De Souza Filho Souza Filho
    Francisco Assis Filho Souza Filho

    I know for example, that a child can be given his mother's maiden name as a sort of middle name (ie. Moraes de Azambuja)

    so in cases like the above, what's a last name, what's a middle name

    thank you!

    Ofelia
     
  12. coolbrowne Senior Member

    Bethesda, MD - USA
    Português-BR/English-US bilingual
    Now we are really stretching it: Google searches are notorious for returning bad results. Just this once, I took the time to research each one, and both are typos. Here are the corrections:
    On the other hand, this has nothing to do with the use of "Filho" (that pesky rule 2 ;)):
    Regards
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  13. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    Thank you very much coolbrowne, the question actually refers to the use of Filho in the middle of the name

    Thanks to everyone, Ofelia
     
  14. Carfer

    Carfer Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Portuguese - Portugal
    In Portugal that's impossible. First names must be picked from a list of officially approved names and 'Filho' is not in it. As a consequence of this rule, Portuguese names are far less colourfull than names from other Portuguese speaking countries. If you intend to give your child a name that is not in the list or is not an established name (like Maria, João, António, etc), you must apply to the Ministry of Justice that decides if the name should be approved and included in the official list after consulting with an expert comission. The list also contains the rejected names (just to mention a name widely given in hispanic countries, Fidel is one of them, not because of political reasons but because it's not considered a Portuguese name).

    'Filho' means the same as 'Junior' but its use as such is quite rare and I'm not aware of any established 'Filho' family name.

    On the other hand, 'Neto' is a common family name, therefore if the person concerned is Portuguese you shouldn't assume that 'Neto' equals 'II' or 'III'.

    These are the rules about names: http://www.irn.mj.pt/IRN/sections/irn/a_registral/registo-civil/docs-do-civil/dar-o-nome/
    and this is the list of approved/rejected names:
    http://www.irn.mj.pt/IRN/sections/i.../docs-da-nacionalidade/vocabulos-admitidos-e/
     
  15. Macunaíma

    Macunaíma Senior Member

    Um ninho de mafagalfinhos
    português, Brasil
    Meu Deus, que horror! Como as pessoas permitem que o estado se imiscua até nisso! Perdão por dizer isso, mas me soa fascista.
     
  16. Carfer

    Carfer Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Tendo a concordar, mas, por outro lado, evita muitos nomes de fantasia completamente ridículos ou resultantes de influências momentâneas e transitórias (telenovelas, por exemplo). A regra vem do período da ditadura, de facto, mas tem já tantas décadas que não há pressão social para que seja modificada.
     
  17. Macunaíma

    Macunaíma Senior Member

    Um ninho de mafagalfinhos
    português, Brasil
    Eu li o arquivo PDF com os nomes sancionados e vi que nomes de origem brasileira (Tupi-Guarani) são aceitos. Estranho não haver a mesma deferência para nomes africanos...

    E, a propósito de Filho e Neto em final de nomes próprios, eu acredito que não se use isso mais hoje em dia aqui no Brasil. Eu só vejo homens mais velhos com o nome exato do pai ou avô e o Filho/Neto no final. Acho que o costume foi abandonado nas últimas gerações. Ainda se vêem os que trazem Júnior no final, que eu acho horrível porque parece nome de cargo, como se a família fosse Francisco de Barros Junior, Francisco de Barros Pleno e Francisco de Barros Sênior :D
     
  18. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    Thank you Carfer

    "On the other hand, 'Neto' is a common family name, therefore if the person concerned is Portuguese you shouldn't assume that 'Neto' equals 'II' or 'III'." --
    this is very helpful
     
  19. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    "E, a propósito de Filho e Neto em final de nomes próprios, eu acredito que não se use isso mais hoje em dia aqui no Brasil. Eu só vejo homens mais velhos com o nome exato do pai ou avô e o Filho/Neto no final."

    so, I wasn't mistaken in thinking I had seen them used in that manner -- thanks!
     
  20. almufadado

    almufadado Senior Member

    Earth
    Português de Portugal
    In Portugal :

    There are people that have as their name (Apelido / Family name ) either :

    "Neto" More common . Examples
    José Neto, Presidente Conselho Administração Quimiparque


    or Filho", but not so common thou .Example

    António Costa Filho


    Do distinguish a parent from a son with the exact same name, one uses a comma and the relative's degree :

    In a 3 generation family :
    António Costa Filho, pai (father)
    António Costa Filho, filho (son)
    António Costa Filho, neto (grandchild)


    In Portugal, Brasil, and spannish speaking South America is more common to see "filho" as last name because as the new born register was made by the church it was tradition to honor the father by given his name to the 1st born (either when borned or when baptized):
    So the new born would be registered as "António Costa, filho" with a comma to honnor his father "António Costa, pai".

    Then with the republican organization, when this registers were transfered to a civil register, in the transposing the comma was "forgeted" making the effective resgistration be "António Costa Filho".

    This is also the reason why, In Portugal, there are many "strange" names (names of places, things, posture, trade or activity, etc) and nick names being the person family names.

    This is not exclusive to Portugal, being the best know example "Michael Shumaker" a derivation from Schuhmacher = shoemaker , it too used commonly in England and America.
     
  21. Ofelia M. Senior Member

    Miami
    Spanish, Cuba
    Thank you very much, this has been very helpful, Ofelia
     
  22. Kneto14 New Member

    English
    Neto is used as a last name.
     
  23. Kneto14 New Member

    English
    my last name is Neto.
     

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