FR: en avoir marre/assez de X

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by vta513, Aug 5, 2007.

  1. vta513 Senior Member

    U.S.; English, Dutch
    Salut,

    Je voulais savoir, comment est-ce qu'on dirait "j'en ai marre" mais expliquant ce dont on a marre. Donc, certaines emissions sur la tele...pourrais-je dire "j'en ai marre, ces emissions..."

    J'ai cherche les expressions mais presque toutes que j'ai vu utilisaient "en" donc je voulais savoir si on pourrait toujours ajouter "de..." en utilisant une expression comme "j'EN ai marre".

    Merci!

    Moderator note: Multiple threads have been merged to create this one.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2010
  2. xtrasystole

    xtrasystole Senior Member

    France
    J'en ai marre de ces émissions stupides !
    J'en ai marre de conduire dans les embouteillages.
    J'en ai marre d'attendre chez le dentiste.
    J'en ai marre des crottes de chiens dans les rues.
    J'en ai marre de vivre ici.
    J'en ai marre d'être ici.
    J'en ai marre de Paris.
    J'en ai marre de toi !
     
  3. Fred_C

    Fred_C Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Perhaps this can help :
    "Marre" is an old adverb that used to mean "assez" (enough).
    "En avoir marre" is exactly interchangeable with "en avoir assez". (to have enough of it)
    So you can almost consider that it is not a set phrase.
     
  4. Francophile_Down Under New Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    English/Strine
    Hi I'm preparing for my Oral assessment in French tomorrow, and I would like to know whether it is still necessary to put the en in j'en ai marre if you follow it with de quelque chose, in order to say "I'm sick of this and that etc". I have conflicting advice on the issue, since my French teacher says to write it as j'ai marre de quelque chose, whereas my Lyonnaise friend says you must ALWAYS keep the en regardless of what follows, that's the idiom.

    Here's the context of the sentence:
    "J'en ai marre de la pauvret
    é, de la souffrance et surtout de la faim dans notre société"

    Merci d'avance pour votre aide !
     
  5. Notquitegenius Senior Member

    North Carolina, USA
    US, English
    Last edited: May 31, 2009
  6. Francophile_Down Under New Member

    Melbourne, Australia
    English/Strine
    Thanks for the link Notquitegenius, I guess the "en" just becomes an idiomatic thing when followed by "de quelque chose".
     
  7. delf4 Senior Member

    French
    Yes, your teacher is wrong, you have to keep "en"
     
  8. Tim~!

    Tim~! Senior Member

    Leicester, UK
    UK — English
    However:

    Your teacher is the person marking your exam.

    She'll be thinking to herself that the 'en' replaces the 'de' clause, and that the presence of the 'de' clause will mean that it's not needed.

    If I were you I'd apply the rules. Otherwise, you run the risk of a teacher marking you down for including the pronoun as well as the thing that it's replacing.

    Irrespective of common usage, she'll be looking for application of the rules as they formally stand.

    That's my opinion, anyway.
     
  9. JWHarding Senior Member

    Paris
    French - France
    While the idiom is colloquial and as such does away with the rules, Tim is right. You run the risk of being marked down for a mistake you didn't make. If I were you, I'd place the "j'en ai marre" at the end of the sentence : "Toute cette pauvreté, cette souffrance et surtout cette faim dans notre société, j'en ai marre !".

    It's both correct in use, and in theory : a good way of avoiding the problem :)

    By the way, if you want to use a less colloquial equivalent, use "j'en ai assez" instead.
     
  10. lefrancophile Senior Member

    English - Canadian
    There's a song by Alizee called "J'en ai marre" and it has lyrics in it along the lines of:

    "J'en ai marre de ceux qui pleurent..."
    "J'en ai marre de ceux qui râlent..."

    Play your teacher the song!
     
  11. WordRef1 Senior Member

    California, USA
    English - America
    […]

    So, could one say "J'ai eu assez de ..."? I know, that's a very English way of putting it, but I thought I'd give it a try. That would probably work just the same as marre though, no?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  12. itka Senior Member

    France
    français
    I'm afraid it does !
    With this meaning, you cannot drop "en".
    "J'en ai assez de la pauvreté, de la souffrance et surtout de la faim dans notre société":tick:

    Though in other contexts, it would work :
    J'ai assez de pommes <---> j'en ai assez
     
  13. TheHeadScratcher New Member

    English - England
    I found this forum while seeking an answer to exactly the same question... and I have a follow-up.

    This thread has identified two instances, avoir assez de qch and avoir marre de qch, where idiomatically the en is still necessary even if you have a de qch after the verb, although nobody has explained why this idiom works.

    I've had a trawl through Hawkins and Towell's French Grammar and Usage and they list the following usages of en as a pronoun:


    • to replace phrases introduced by de (e.g. je doute de qchj'en doute; exceptions: particularly in spoken French, when referring to people, it's common to use a stressed prounoun after de e.g. Je suis fière de lui; and verbs like permettre that take the construction à qn de faire qch, hence je permets à qn de faire qchje le lui permets without en)
    • with numerals and quantifiers (j'en ai dix/beaucoup)
    • some set phrases (s'en aller, s'en imposer, s'en prendre à, en revenir, s'en tenir à, en vouloir à, en découdre, C'en est fait, Où en sommes-nous?)
    They don't list any instance where en and de are used at the same time. They do list some examples where there is "doubling up" of other pronouns for e.g. disambiguation of gender (compare: je leur dis de partir; je leur dis à eux de partir; je leur dis à elles de partir).

    Are avoir assez de qch and avoir marre de qch the only examples, idiomatic or otherwise, where en and de are both used? It would be nice to know if the en carries any particular meaning (what is the pronoun referring to?) or if it just "has to be there"...
     
  14. Tim~!

    Tim~! Senior Member

    Leicester, UK
    UK — English
    I think en avoir ras le bol works in the same way.

    J'en ai ras le bol de tes bêtises!
     
  15. Umslopogas New Member

    La Charente, France
    English - England
    Logic says either or but not both - so "en" on its own or "de quelque chose" on its own.

    [...]
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  16. Chimel Senior Member

    Belgium
    Français
    "En peut se trouver dans la même proposition que le complément qu'il remplace (et qui précède ou qui suit) s'il s'agit d'une expression plus vive ou d'un effet d'insistance:
    On en parlera longtemps, de ce coup-là!
    Il en faut du courage pour un tel sacrifice!
    Des précautions, on n'en prend jamais assez.
    J'en ai assez de ces manières." (Hanse, Difficultés du français moderne)

    Notice he doesn't speak here of an idiomatic use, with a list of set expressions, but more generally of "un effet d'insistance".

    I think that this reinforcement effect has become the standard way of saying it for "En avoir assez" (and the numerous synonyms: "en avoir marre", "en avoir ras-le-bol", "en avoir jusque-là"...), so that we are no longer aware that there is a reinforcement!

    Or, to put it this way: you can still express the first three examples without the reinforcement ("On parlera longtemps de ce coup-là" and so on), but not the one with "j'en ai assez". This make the specificity of this expression (and its synonyms).

    Actually, it is more subtle than that and I think Hanse's explanation (see previous page) can also help understand why it is so.

    When you use "assez de" in the neutral meaning of "enough", without any sense of irritation, exasperation and so on, then you have the choice between the normal rule and the reinforcement.

    J'ai mangé des pommes -> j'en ai mangé (normal rule)
    or
    Des pommes, j'en ai mangé! (reinforcement)

    Similarly:
    J'ai assez de pommes -> j'en ai assez
    or
    Des pommes, j'en ai assez ! (reinforcement: you're not fed up with apples, you just state, with some strength, that the quantity is now enough for you, like: Oui, ça va, comme ça j'en ai assez (pour faire ma compote).

    But:
    if you want to say "I have enough of it" in the meaning "I'm fed up", then you only can use the reinforcement form:
    Les pommes, j'en ai assez !
    or
    J'en ai assez, des pommes !

    By the way: this is a very subtle difference not many non-francophone people are aware of, if you ask me... :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  17. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    Greetings all, :)

    This is an interesting discussion, but I'm afraid it's starting to stray rather far afield. We need this thread to remain focused on the original topic: the grammatical construction en avoir marre (assez, etc.) de quelque chose. Though introduction of a different type of example sentence for comparative purposes, to shed light on the emphatic structure of j'en ai marre de is appropriate and helpful, we can't discuss those alternate sentences in depth in this thread. And I'm afraid that we can never accept requests for lists of expressions (not even ones that follow same pattern as en avoir marre de), because we always need each thread to focus on a single word or phrase, just like a dictionary entry would.

    Thanks for your understanding!

    Jann
    moderator
     
  18. telletubby Senior Member

    Hi. I understand that when I say j'en ai marre. it means I'm fed up with it - the 'en' being the equivalent of 'of it.'

    But when I say J'en ai marre d'être tout seul it seems to me that the pronoun 'en' is superfluous, yet we still say it. Why isn't it J'ai marre d'être tout seul?
     
  19. Lacuzon

    Lacuzon Senior Member

    France
    French - France
    Bonjour,

    It's an excellent question ! I think that the correct expression is avoir marre de quelque chose and not en avoir marre de quelque chose. But j'en ai marre became so common that we do not hesitate to add a de to en avoir marre. Pleonastic, according to me but so usual...

    Any others opinions?
     
  20. jamesjaime Senior Member

    Northern England
    English - England
    I've heard phrases of the type:

    J'en ai marre d'attendre!!!

    or

    J'en ai assez de cela!!

    Now, I know that "en" is a pronoun meaning "of it". But why is it included here, because the "of + ..." part is already mentioned? In other words, shouldn't it just be "J'en ai marre"! or "J'ai marre d'attendre"? Not both?

    I've seen it in other constructions as well, with the "en" and the "de + noun/clause" pieces used together, and I really don't understand!

    Why are they both used?
     
  21. atcheque

    atcheque mod errant

    Česko - Morava
    français (France)
    Bonjour,

    In French, en avoir marre, is a set phrase, you just have to use it this way ;) even if adding a complement with de.
     
  22. Fred_C

    Fred_C Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Je suis d’accord.
    Et je suis en total désaccord avec ce qu’a dit ce sombre personnage :
    C’était moi, il y a quelque temps ! :D
     
  23. Jonapedia Junior Member

    Singapore
    English - Singapore/UK
    Salut!

    Je ne suis pas francophone de souche, mais voici ce que je propose:

    On voit assez souvent cet en "indéfini" en français, en particulier dans les expressions figées comme celle-ci. Je crois qu'il remplace le petit quelque chose qui manque, ce dont on a besoin pour compléter le sens. Ici, je pense qu'il signifie le truc (une qualité etc.) qui fait le déplaisir de l'individu concerné.

    Par ex., "J'en ai assez des pommes de terre!" Ben, les pommes de terre ne sont pas fâcheuses en soi, non? Donc, il faut que, pour lui, les pommes de terres aient de quoi le gêner, ce qui ne serait ni très bien défini ni précisément exprimé verbalement.

    Qu'en pensez-vous, les autres?
     
  24. vta513 Senior Member

    U.S.; English, Dutch
    Bonjour a tous,

    Je suis tres desolee parce que je viens de recevoir un email disant que j'ai recu des reponses a ma question de 2007! Je vous remerci a tous, tres en retard, pour toutes les explications.
     

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