1. The WordReference Forums have moved to new forum software. (Details)

FR: information that we or our clients provide

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by Valosh, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. Valosh

    Valosh Senior Member

    Perth-Australia
    Belgium-French
    Most information and material we or our clients supply to you will be of a confidential nature ...

    My translation:
    La majorité des informations et matériels que nos clients ou nous-mêmes vous fournirons/fourniront (?) sera à caractère confidentiel ...

    I am confused here...

    Help!!:confused:

    Moderator note: this discussion was split from a separate thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  2. floise Senior Member

    Quebec
    U.S.;English
    [...]

    Also, should it be fournirons to go with nous-mêmes or fourniront to go with nos clients?


    From the same source:
    - avec deux sujets appartenant à des personnes grammaticales différentes, l'accord se fait au pluriel avec la personne qui a la priorité (la 1re l'emporte sur la 2e, la 2e sur la 3e):Toi et moi sommes invités à la fête.
    Vous et vos enfants êtes une famille remarquable.
    Mes frères et moi sommes de grands sportifs.I think this means that your version is correct.


    Floise
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  3. mogador Senior Member

    Marseille, France
    FRENCH AND US
    concerning fourniront/fournirons, i am sorry to disagree with floise;I would go with fournirons : nos clients ou nous is 2nd plural

    In floise's examples : toi et moi = nous, donc 1e pluriel sommes
    vous et vos enfants = vous, donc 2e pluriel
    mes frères + moi = nous, donc sommes

    In your case , nos clients ou nous is still 2nd plural
     
  4. Missrapunzel

    Missrapunzel Senior Member

    Paris
    French (France)
    I agree with you, mogador : I think it should be nos clients ou nous fournirons.
    But isn't it what Floise also said? So we all agree! :)
     
  5. mogador Senior Member

    Marseille, France
    FRENCH AND US
    actually, "nos clients" alone would be fourniront ; "nos clients et nous" : fournirons, but "nos clients ou nous" introduces an alternate subject and I can't be positive about fourniront/s.
     
  6. Valosh

    Valosh Senior Member

    Perth-Australia
    Belgium-French
    Well in that case I better post the rest of the phrase as there is a 'fournis' again a bit further down.. So is it 'fournis' or 'fournit'????????

    La majorité des informations et matériels que nos clients ou nous-mêmes vous fournirons sera à caractère confidentiel et vous traiterez toute information et matériel fournis par nos clients ou nous-mêmes comme étant confidentiels à moins d’une certitude que ces informations ou matériels font partie du domaine public.
     
  7. floise Senior Member

    Quebec
    U.S.;English
    Hi again,

    Quoting from post 4: But isn't it what Floise also said? So we all agree!

    Yes, MissRapunzel, that's what I had said.

    But I don't understand Mogador's statement that the combined 'nos clients ou nous' = 2nd plural. 2nd plural would be vous.

    I am still baffled by what to do when the ou comes between two subjects of different persons. I will research further on this grammatical point.

    Floise
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  8. mogador Senior Member

    Marseille, France
    FRENCH AND US
    fournis.
    And the rest of the sentence seems right to me
     
  9. mogador Senior Member

    Marseille, France
    FRENCH AND US
    sorry,of course nous is 1st plural



    Mogador
     
  10. floise Senior Member

    Quebec
    U.S.;English
    Valosh,

    It would not be 'fournit'. The only past participle possibilities would be fourni/fournie/fournis/fournies. Since you have to make the agreement with a combined subject, which has one feminine and one masculine item, you make the agreement with the masculine. I believe fournis would be correct.

    Floise
     
  11. Valosh

    Valosh Senior Member

    Perth-Australia
    Belgium-French
    Of course! Thank you Floise!
     
  12. mogador Senior Member

    Marseille, France
    FRENCH AND US
    Quoting from post 2 :I don't understand the reference to a priority :to me, there is no priority between toi et moi ; it's just toi + moi = nous, that makes it 1st plural. Priority would be between genders : "le masculin l'emporte sur le féminin" in a group of people
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  13. floise Senior Member

    Quebec
    U.S.;English
    Mogador,

    Your point is good, and the explanation using priorities is just one way of showing how to find the right person for a combined subject. I believe that you can just as easily say 'je + ton frère = nous' or 'tes cousins + nous = nous' or 'toi + ma mère = vous'. Using the priority rule (in post 2) will give the same results.

    The problem here, however, is the connecting of the two subjects by ou. It requires a different rule. I've looked in Grévisse and a few other French grammar books and have not found exactly the same situation.

    Floise
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  14. floise Senior Member

    Quebec
    U.S.;English
    Hi everyone,

    I think I've found the rule:

    Accord du verbe avec plusieurs sujets

    En règle générale, il faut savoir si les sujets s'ajoutent ou ne s'ajoutent pas. Avec les coordinations qui habituellement ajoutent un terme à l'autre (et, virgule) l'accord se fait au pluriel (aux réserves près, ci-dessus). Mais la coordination ne comporte pas toujours cette idée d'addition, en particulier avec :

    - les coordinations "ou, ni". Lorsque les antécédents s'ajoutent, l'accord se fait sur les deux. Lorsqu'ils ne s'ajoutent pas, on fait l'accord avec le dernier.

    source:
    http://www.synapse-fr.com/manuels/MULT_SUJ.htm

    In the situation that is presented to us in Valosh's sentence, the two subjects do not combine. It's either our clients or us who do the supplying. So, the second rule above applies; i.e., the agreement is made with the subject closest to the verb. In this case, it is nous, so the verb is 'fournirons'.

    Floise
     
  15. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    [...]
    You end up with the correct conclusion but with the wrong reasoning! In French, ou is not exclusive. Here the meaning of the sentence makes it clear that both our clients and ourselves will – or at least may – provide information… In other words the two subjects add up to each other and you agree with them both.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  16. Ziggurat New Member

    Canada - Francien
    [...]
    Because it is 'perfectly clear' to you does not mean this is the way everyone interpreted it. The first time I read his sentence I thought the 'or' was exclusive. It could be that EITHER the clients OR 'we' will supply the material. In that case, it is always better to ask exactly what the author meant in the original text.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  17. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    [...]
    Again you've misinterpreted what I meant. Of course the context will provide the best answer! What I meant is that by default in French the disjunction ou is inclusive… Hence, by default, this inclusion is obvious

    P.S.: I won't further argue; this was my last post for this thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009

Share This Page