FR: le/lui faire + infinitif - causative "faire" + direct/indirect pronoun

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by ajglywakyta, Mar 17, 2008.

  1. ajglywakyta Junior Member

    U.S.A. English
    Why is it that you say:
    Je le fais chanter --meaning, I make him sing.

    but you say,

    je lui fais chanter la chanson. (or do you?)

    a related question:

    why do you say:
    laisse-la dire. or "laisse-la se flatter"
    but,
    laisse-lui dire la phrase. or "laisse-lui croire ce qu'elle veut"

    is it because of the addition of the direct object?

    by extension, do you say -- laisse-la le dire or laisse-lui la dire?? and why?

    sorry for the long post, and marci d'avance!

    Moderator note: Multiple threads have been merged to create this one. See also this thread in the Français Seulement forum.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  2. Kurious

    Kurious Junior Member

    France
    "Je le fais chanter" can also mean I blackmail him
    "laisse -la dire" could mean let her say what she wants, (even if it's not true, or if she's wrong...)
    whereas "Laisse lui le dire " let her speak, let her say it

    ...
     
  3. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    First, the faire causatif admits only one direct and one indirect object.
    Secondly, I don't think "laisse-la dire" could be used as a stand-alone sentence. Dire requires an object.
    Thirdly, laisser may be treated like faire, but may use its own structure.
    It would not be incorrect to say: "laisse-la dire la phrase." With a pronoun for the sentence, it sounds odd to me to say: laisse-la la dire, although there is no grammatical objection I can think of.
    If you treat laisser like faire, then you would say:
    "laisse-lui dire la phrase." and "Laisse-la-lui dire."
    Since I have not been to France in 25 years, I don't know which structure natives currently prefer, but in the case of pronouns, I would guess the latter.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  4. ajglywakyta Junior Member

    U.S.A. English
    still,
    why is it "laisse-la se flatter"
    but,
    "laisse-lui croire ce qu'elle veut"?

    also,

    since "Je le fais chanter" means something else idiomatically, how about:
    Je le fais danser
    VS.
    Je lui fais danser la danse.

    --It seems like the "le" and the "lui" are serving the same purpose in both sentences but one is a direct and the other an indirect object. Does it change because of the presence of the indirect object in the first place (why wasn't the first one just -- "je lui fais danser" - I know, because it's "je fais danser l'homme", but it doesn't seem consistent. Another hypothesis is "je le fais danser" expands to "je fais danser l'homme" but "je lui fais danser la danse" expands to "je fais danser la danse par l'homme". Does anyone have any insight or other examples of the object pronouns change from a direct object to an indirect object?
     
  5. Fred_C

    Fred_C Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Hi,
    You have noticed a peculiarity that I was not aware of, as a native speaker. I am afraid I will not be able to explain why, but I will try to make things clear :
    First : You are right : we say : Je le fais chanter, but : Je lui fais chanter la chanson. I do not know why, I am sorry.
    Second : you are wrong : We say : Laisse-la dire or laisse-la se flatter, but we do not say : :cross:laisse-lui dire la phrase or :cross:Laisse-lui croire ce qu'elle veut. We say instead : Laisse-la dire la phrase, or Laisse-la croire ce qu'elle veut.
    It seems that "laisser" does not work like "faire", because we would say : "Je le fais chanter, je lui fais chanter la chanson, je le laisse chanter, je LE laisse chanter la chanson".

    Is seems that "faire" is an exception, because a perception verb like "voir" or "entendre" works like "laisser" :
    "Je le vois chanter, je le vois chanter la chanson" (and not : :cross:je lui entends chanter la chanson")

    Lastly : to say : "Let her say it", We would say : ":tick:Laisse-la le dire" and not ":cross:laisse-le lui dire"(where le means it and lui means her), but we would say ":tick:Fais-le lui dire" and not ":cross:fais-la le dire", which is consistent with the abovementioned.

    Note : I said that "laisse-le lui dire" is wrong. It is wrong if you mean that "le" means it and "lui" means her, but it is right if "le" means "him" and "lui" means "her" or "him", in that case, "laisse-le lui dire" means "let him tell her", but it is a completely different sentence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  6. ajglywakyta Junior Member

    U.S.A. English
    I read "laissez-lui croire ce qu'elle voudra" in Dom Juan - Moliere.
    Perhaps at some point in the past, "Laissez" worked like "faire" (where with the addition of a direct object, the pronoun changes). Now, as Fred explained thoroughly (merci!), it does not.
     
  7. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    It seems to me that there are some cases where you would use lui where it is clearly an accusative (whereas lui is supposed to be dative) which are purely idiomatic and which are indeed difficult to explain.

    I remember having read in a grammer book that you prefer lui with faire unless there is a risk of confusion with a real dative, i.e. where "Je lui fait..." might be construed to mean that "I cause somthing to be done to him." Fred_C, do you think this explanation makes sense?

    Regards,
    Bernd
     
  8. Fred_C

    Fred_C Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Hi,
    do you mean such a sentence like "Je lui fais lire le journal", which could mean : "I have him read the newspaper", or "I have the newspaper read to him" ?
    Actually yes, it can mean both.
    In speech, people could try to disambiguate by saying "Je le fais lire le journal", when they feel a risk of confusion, but I do not think it is correct.
    Maybe your grammar book was trying to explain why you could hear such a sentence, not stating that it was absolutely correct.
    In a text, where correction is required, in order to disambiguate, I would write another sentence. Like "Je lui demande de lire le journal", for example.
     
  9. janpol

    janpol Senior Member

    France
    France - français
    "laisse-le lui dire"... je pense que, "dire" n'ayant de sens que suivi d'un complément, on aurait intérêt à travailler sur une phrase complète (on a là un complément second et pas de complément... "premier") : "laisse-le lui dire qu'il partira demain"... d'autant que l'on pourrait bien décider ensuite de remplacer la complétive "qu'il partira demain" par un pronom, ce qui conduirait à "laisse-le le lui dire"...
    "Je lui fais lire le journal" = cette phrase est certes ambiguë dite hors contexte mais on peut penser que, dite "en situation" elle ne le serait pas. Si elle le demeurait cependant, il y aurait la solution qui a été donnée : dire plutôt "je lui demande de lire le journal". Pourtant, on peut entendre cette forme factitive : "Je lui fais lire le journal" (Par exemple : "Pour habituer mon fils à la lecture, je lui fais lire le journal").
    Dit hors situation, il me semble que c'est plutôt à "je lui demande de lire le journal" que renvoie "je lui fais lire le journal" (aucune certitude, juste une impression basée sur le fait que c'est généralement avec ce sens que l'on utilise cette construction). Ce serait alors dans le cas où l'on voudrait faire entendre l'autre sens de cette phrase qu'il conviendrait d'être plus explicite : "je lui fais lire le journal PAR SA VOISINE". "Ma vieille mère a les yeux fatigués, je lui fais lire le journal". (Personne ne songerait à se révolter contre un fils indigne qui obligerait sa vieille mère dont la vue baisse à lire quotidiennement le journal...)
     
  10. cheeseontoast Junior Member

    English - England
    HI i'm having trouble translating the phrase 'I got her to say yes'.

    My try: je l'ai faite dire oui

    I know its dire qch à qn, but i'm not really sure how that fits in here...

    Thanks
     
  11. Lacuzon

    Lacuzon Senior Member

    France
    French - France
    Hi,

    Je l'ai fait dire oui (fait does not agree when followed by an infinitive).
     
  12. Oddmania

    Oddmania Senior Member

    France
    French
    As we say Faire faire quelque chose à quelqu'un, shouldn't it be Je lui ai fait dire oui ?
     
  13. Lacuzon

    Lacuzon Senior Member

    France
    French - France
    Ô que si ! J'ai repris la construction anglaise !:eek:

    Toutes mes excuses !
     
  14. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Both constructions are indeed possible! :)

    Je lui ai fait dire oui. :tick: (= J'ai fait dire oui à lui elle)
    Je l'ai fait dire oui.
    :tick: (= J'ai fait qu'il dise oui)
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  15. LV4-26

    LV4-26 Senior Member

    Could you elaborate a little bit?
    Or just confirm that, by (= j'ai fait dire oui à lui), you mean I got "someone" to say yes to him? But then, Je lui ai fait dire oui could also mean I got "someone" to say yes to her, right?
     
  16. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Ah, sorry… I meant her/elle. (I had forgotten we were talking about a woman.) In other words, I meant to say, J'ai fait faire cela à elle.
     
  17. LV4-26

    LV4-26 Senior Member

    That confuses me even more. :)

    Do you mean that ==>

    1) Je l'ai fait dire oui
    and
    Je lui ai fait dire oui
    have the same ultimate meaning -- albeit with a distinct internal structure --, i.e., I got her to say yes?

    Or is it that ==>

    2) Je l'ai fait dire oui
    means I got her to say yes
    and
    Je lui ai fait dire oui
    means I got [whoever-it-was] to say yes to her/him

    ...which is what we mean when we say, for instance,
    Untel vous fait dire qu'il arrivera en retard.
    ?
     
  18. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    I'm confused as well.

    If oui is considered the direct object, then lui is the only possibility in the sentence.

    Je lui ai fait dire oui.

    My understanding is that the faire causative can have only one direct and one indirect object.

    Il la fait écrire. (He has her write OR He has it written.) One object - direct
    Il lui fait écrire la lettre. (He has her write the letter.)Two objects - one direct, one indirect
    Il se fait lire le courrier par elle. (He has her read the mail to him.) Three objects, only two of which can be the direct and indirect objects. The third must be expressed by par.

    As for the interpretation of the sentence, would that not depend on the context rather than the grammar? In other words, could the sentence Je lui ai fait dire oui. not have two possible meanings according to the context?
     
  19. LV4-26

    LV4-26 Senior Member

    To get back to the origin of my doubt.

    When I saw cheeseontoast's sentence, I first thought
    "je l'ai fait dire oui looks OK but I'd rather have je lui ai fait dire oui."

    Then I thought "why is that?" I mean, we do say things like
    Je l'ai fait marcher sur le trottoir and not Je lui ai fait marcher sur le trottoir.

    I think I've got the answer, now. ==>

    Consider
    1. Je lui ai fait manger sa purée.
    2. Je l'ai fait lire
    3. Je lui ait fait lire un livre
    4. Je l'ai fait marcher sur le trottoir.

    All the above sentences are fine and, to my ear, the best possible ways of conveying the meaning in get someone to do something/make someone do something

    In 1. and 3. we've got transitive verbs with a direct object
    In 4., we've got an intransitive verb
    In 2. we've got a transitive verb used intransitively, i.e., without a direct object.

    My conclusion: the dative personal pronoun is used (and preferable) whenever there's a direct object.
    Otherwise, the object personal pronoun is compulsory.

    This makes a sentence like 3. ambiguous.

    ..as it can both mean
    - I made him/her read a book
    - I had a book read to him/her

    .. though, of course, logic and general usage helping, the former interpretation is more likely than the latter. With a sentence like "je lui ai fait porter des fleurs", it would be the reverse. But, on a strictly grammatical level, we couldn't totally exclude the possibility that I made him carry flowers.

    Hoping everyone follows my drift....
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  20. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    I meant #1. So, yes, both indeed have the same meaning. The indirect object is more frequent, but the direct one can also be used to say the same thing.

    EDIT: I finally found the relevant article in Le Bon Usage (§ 903, b, 1º, 14e éd.):
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  21. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    But while it works in this case, it may not work in all cases, and could therefore be confusing to a student of French. I'm sure there are many variations of usage that would be instinctive to native speakers, but which might only confuse the non-native.

    The original poster cannot go wrong by following the usual rules.
     
  22. parapluie Junior Member

    English United States
    Je voudrais écrire en français:

    The teacher didn't like the footprints and she made them clean them up.

    La maîtresse n'aimait pas les empreintes et elle leur (les) a fait les nettoyer.

    C'est vrai?
     
  23. coquillette champfleuri Junior Member

    French
    the litteral translation would be:
    "la maîtresse n'aimait pas les empreintes et les leur a fait nettoyer"

    It is correct but " ...et leur a demandé de les nettoyer" would be better
     
  24. imao Senior Member

    French
    I disagree with coquillette champfleuri: to make s.o. do something has a different meaning from to ask s.o. to do something. Indeed, the first phrase means 'faire faire quelque chose à quelqu'un'. It is more an obligation whereas the second one means, as you said, 'demander à quelqu'un de faire quelque chose', which is nothing more than a simple request.
     
  25. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I'm wondering about the pronouns here. As far as I remember you can say: il m'a fait crier. So, on the basis of analogy shouldn't we say:
    la maîtresse les a fait les netoyer ?
    Where the first 'les' means 'students' and the second 'footprints'.
     
  26. imao Senior Member

    French
    You're right but the first one must be 'leur', like in the following: la maîtresse leur a fait nettoyer les empreintes.

    With 'les' that is a direct object which is used for the footprints, it goes like this: la maîtresse les leur a fait nettoyer.

    I know this may not look understandable... sorry!
     
  27. Wil_Estel Senior Member

    Thomas1

    No we cannot say that. "Les" is a direct object pronoun, while "leur" is an indirect object one. In this case, les refers to the fingerprints, while leur refers to the students.

    In your example, the "me" (or rather m'), in "il m'a fait crier" is a direct object pronoun. Unfortunately, its indirect object counterpart is also "me", which might have thrown you off guard.

    Also, keep in mind that these pronouns should be placed IN FRONT OF the conjugated verb, which is "fait" in this particular case.

    So, the sentence should be "La maîtresse les leur a fait nettoyer."

    I hope my explanation is clear.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  28. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    […]
    My reasoning behind ‘la maîtresse les a fait les nettoyer’ is the following. I take the first ‘les’ to be the direct object of the verb ‘faire’ whereas the second to be the object of ‘nettoyer’, which is why I used the pronouns in different places (each pronoun before its verb).

    Having done some research I found out that:
    Generally, in constructions ‘faire + infinitive + object’, the performer is introduced either by ‘à’ (the dative) or by ‘par’. So we have: La maîtresse a fait nettoyer les emprintes aux étudiants. --> La maîtresse les leur a fait nettoyer.
    It is possible, however, to introduce the performer as the direct object (the accusative) of the verb ‘faire’ when the performer is represented by a pronoun:
    If there are two objects in the form of pronouns and you insert them before the support verb, then the performer is expressed in the dative form:
    Elle les leur a fait nettoyer.
    However, if you use each object before its verb then the performer object is in the accusative :
    And last but not least, if both objects are represented by pronouns and are of the third person, they can’t be used separately, i.e. one before ‘faire’ and the other beofre the infinitive. They all go before ‘faire’ and the performer is necessarily the indirect object (dative).

    In brief, only 'Elle les leur a fait nettoyer.' is correct.

    There are many rules regarding this question.

    For more information, see :
    M. Grevisse, Le bon usage, « 903 — L’agent de la proposition infinitive objet direct. » and « 684 — Le verbe est à l’infinitif. », b, 1°.

    He made Peter give the strawberry to Hannah.
    He made him give it to her.

    Récemment, nous avons eu un fil sur un sujet pareil […] et je me demande maintenant quelle est la place des pronoms dans la traduction de la phrase anglaise en français :
    Il l’a fait la lui donner.
    Il lui a fait la lui doner.
    Est-ce que l'une de celles-ci est correcte ?

    Merci d'avance
    T.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  29. Aranjuez Senior Member

    I guess, the first one is grammatically correct, but I'm not sure if such a phrase could somehow be used in a real communication :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  30. Pierre Simon Senior Member

    English
    Hullo Thomas1

    I'm not sure that I agree with the answer given by Aranjuez.

    I would translate this as : Il a fait à Pierre donner la fraise à Hannah. If you then replace the names with pronouns, this gives : Il lui a fait la lui donner.
     
  31. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    En fait, il y a deux possibilités:

    Il l'a fait la lui donner.
    Il la lui a fait lui donner.

    […]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  32. Pierre Simon Senior Member

    English
    Hullo Maître Capello :)

    Many thanks for your clarification. I have one further question : in the second of your examples, is it always the case that the pronoun which replaces the direct object of the infinitive (la/la fraise) comes before the finite verb (faire), rather than before the infinitive (donner)?
     
  33. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Thanks, Maître. :)

    Pierre, no.
    Il l'a fait la lui donner.
    l' -- him
    la -- strawberry
    lui -- to her

    Il la lui a fait lui donner.

    la -- strawberry
    lui -- him
    lui -- to her

    PS: I recommend that you read the threads linked to by me or Maître.
     
  34. Jeanclaude01 Senior Member

    Paris, France
    French-French
    pour ma part je ne vois pas d'autre traduction que:
    "Il l'a lui a fait donner"
    l' remplace strawberry, lui remplace Hannah.
    Si l'on voulait inclure Peter dans la phrase il faudrai dire:
    "Il l'a lui a fait donner par Peter
     
  35. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Il y a pourtant deux façons de construire la phrase puisque tous les compléments sont des pronoms personnels. Voir cet extrait du Bon Usage (§ 903, c, 1º, 14e éd.):
     
  36. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Je voulais le remarquer avant, mais j'ai pensé que ça changeait s'il y avait deux complements de l'infinitif. Maintenant, quand J.-C. l'a indirectement abordé, je me trouve de nouveau dans le doute. Il y a effectivement une règle qui dit que l'on ne met le complément de » faire « qu'en datif dans un cas assez particulier :
    Cette règle et les exemples du § 903, c, 1º me mènent à la conclusion que « Il l'a fait la lui donner. » n'est pas correct ou est-ce que je n'ai pas repéré quelque chose ?
     
  37. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    C'est Il la lui a fait donner qu'il faudrait écrire dans ce cas. (Sinon il y aurait deux verbes conjugués dans la même sous-phrase.) Mais ce serait en fait la traduction de He made him give it sans le to her… ou alors de He had it given to her qui a un tout autre sens! Comme on peut le voir, cette phrase est ambiguë en français.
    J'avoue ne pas comprendre cette dernière remarque de Grevisse… Pourquoi la construction à la 3e personne serait-elle différente de celle des autres personnes? En tout cas, je ne vois pas pourquoi il faudrait la condamner.

    Quoi qu'il en soit, d'une part le tour avec les deux pronoms précédant le verbe conjugué est ambigu comme je l'ai montré plus haut, d'autre part l'infinitif de la phrase (donner) a deux compléments pronoms personnels — un direct (la/la fraise) et un autre indirect (lui/à Hannah) —, ce qui complique un peu les choses. Ce sont peut-être les raisons qui font que l'on rechigne à employer Il la lui a fait lui donner. En fait, à l'oral, on ne dirait certainement aucune des phrases suggérées, mais on reformulerait la phrase différemment.
     
  38. DenisedeSEA Senior Member

    English
    Bonjour,

    Dit-on Je l'ai fait changer 'avis ou je lui ai fait changer d'avis?
    (I made him/her changer his/her mind.)
     
  39. Fredddd Senior Member

    France
    French
    I would say "je l'ai fait changer d'avis"
     
  40. Fredddd Senior Member

    France
    French
    well to be sure I tried other ponouns "je vous ai fait changer d'avis" "je t'ai fait changer d'avis" but the other might be correct too.
     
  41. DenisedeSEA Senior Member

    English
    It's just that "vous" and "te" can both be direct and indirect pronouns.
    Only lui and leur [indirect] (instead of le/la and les [direct]) would show the difference, right?
     
  42. Fredddd Senior Member

    France
    French
    argh ! you're right there. my French dictionary gives me "faire changer d'avis à quelqu'un"
     
  43. DenisedeSEA Senior Member

    English
    Mais qu'est-ce qu'il faut croire alors? Difficile à dire, non?
    Puis-je vous demander le nom de votre dico?

    Merci :)
     
  44. Fredddd Senior Member

    France
    French
    Le Robert (quite common French dictionary).
     
  45. jacques songo'o Junior Member

    english-ireland
    I have been studying the faire causative and am aware that when there is both an agent and a receiver the agent is considered the indirect object. But I'm wondering if this changes in the sentence above when the receiver follows a verb that requires a preposition. Would this not make "avis" an indirect object and mean "le" could be used to express "him"? "Vous ne lui ferez pas changer de son avis" just sounds strange to me. Can anyone help me?
     
  46. poubcool Junior Member

    Français
    You are right, you must write : "Vous ne lui ferez pas changer son avis" why ? Because changer is a motion verb (i'm not sure of the translation), un verbe de mouvement in french. So, it's a transitive verb, like in English by the way, we say "change something".
    So, when the verb causes a transformation, a move, it's followed by the noun, it is the definition of a transitive verb.
     
  47. Donaldos

    Donaldos Senior Member

    French - France
    In your sentence, both pronouns are actually correct :

    Vous ne lui ferez pas changer d'avis. (indirect object)

    Vous ne le ferez pas changer d'avis. (direct object)​
     
  48. JeanDeSponde

    JeanDeSponde Senior Member

    France, Lyon area
    France, Français
    Actually the common wording would be Vous ne le ferez pas changer d'avis, to avoid 1/ doubling le with son, and 2/ "le" because the verb in the infinitive (here, "changer") has no COD (complément d'objet direct.)
    Sorry for the complexity of the 2nd rule —pardon our French;) — I'll try to explain:
    • Vous ne lui ferez pas chanter une chanson : "chanter" has a COD, hence "lui"
    • Vous ne le ferez pas chanter : "changer" has no COD, hence "le"
    • Vous ne le ferez pas changer d'avis : "avis" is a COI, not a COD ; hence "le"
    See e.g. here:
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2012
  49. Donaldos

    Donaldos Senior Member

    French - France
    Except that the infinitive is followed by an indirect object and in that case either pronoun (le or lui) may be used, depending on usage.

    (LAROUSSE)

    (Pièges et difficultés de la langue française, Jean GIRODET)
     
  50. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Donaldos is correct. :)

    According to Grevisse (§ 903 a):
    […]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013

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