FR: se rappeler (de?) / se souvenir de

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by verbivore, Oct 18, 2007.

  1. verbivore Senior Member

    USA, English
    Est-ce possible de modifier la première phrase en utilisant "se souvenir" ?

    Beaucoup d'enfants se rappellent des choses qu'ils n'osent raconter à leurs parents.

    Beaucoup d'enfants s'en souviennent des choses qu'ils n'osent raconter à leurs parents.

    Le problème, c'est le "de + des" qu'on trouve en essayant de faire le remplacement.

    Merci.
     
  2. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    Hello verbivore, :)
    I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question. What "de + les" are you talking about? :confused:

    Se rappeler and se souvenir de may be used as virtual synonyms, and when they are, they have the same grammatical structure:

    Beaucoup d'enfants se rappellent des choses qu'ils n'osent (pas) raconter. :tick:
    Beaucoup d'enfants s'en se souviennent des choses qu'ils n'osent (pas) raconter.
    :tick:
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  3. verbivore Senior Member

    USA, English
    I was under the impression that the verb is "se rappeler" and not "se rappeler de." Thus, when you replace it with "se souvenir de" you wind up with an extra "de" which I don't know what to do with. Either the replacement cannot be done in this situation, or the extra "de" must go somewhere. Thanks.
     
  4. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    Ah, I understand your confusion. And the quick answer is that the duplication of the de is simply eliminated:

    se rappeler + des choses = se rappeler des choses [This des is the indefinite plural article]
    se souvenir de + les choses = se souvenir des choses [The resulting des indicates the definite article]
    se souvenir de + des choses = se souvenir de choses [The resulting de indicates the indefinite article]

    So that gives slightly different meanings:
    Ils se rappellent des choses qu'ils n'osent pas raconter = They remember (some) things they don't dare tell.
    Ils se souviennent de choses qu'ils n'osent pas raconter = " " " " "
    Ils se souviennent des choses qu'ils n'osent pas raconter = They remember the things that they don't dare tell.

    While se rappeler without de is preferrable, se rappeler de is also exists. This is what the TLF says about it:
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  5. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Despite the TLF, I think a learner is better off following the logic behind the two verbs.

    If you think of the verb rappeler as meaning literally recall and the verb souvenir as remind, it is easier to handle these two verbs.

    On se rappelle quelque chose
    On se souvient de quelque chose. (De is a preposition here, not an article.)

    One may use the plural indefinite article" des" after se rappeler because there is no preposition getting in the way, but the same is not true with se souvenir which is completed by the preposition de.

    One may not say: On se souvient de des... So, one simply omits it.

    This may help keep these two verbs straight.

    P.S. I found it amusing that the TLF writes that the incorrect form is found chez les bons auteurs, rather than chez de bons auteurs. This suggests to me that only good authors use it; the not so good avoid it.:D

    The other suggestion in the TLF is that since me, te, etc., cannot be used along with se rappeler, one should add the "de." I disagree. This is clearly a case, where I would substitute the verb "se souvenir." What could be simpler?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  6. verbivore Senior Member

    USA, English
    "The other suggestion in the TLF is that since me, te, etc., cannot be used along with se rappeler, one should add the "de." I disagree. This is clearly a case, where I would substitute the verb "se souvenir." What could be simpler?"

    Well, it seems that keeping the original verb and adding de leaves us with the same amount of words. So, I say it's a toss up :)
     
  7. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Not if the one that does not normally use de is wrong!;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  8. verbivore Senior Member

    USA, English
    If the TLF is correct, and you are assuming it is in your posting, then I must stand firm and say it's a toss up (in terms of energy required) ;)
     
  9. Maître Capello

    Maître Capello Mod et ratures

    Suisse romande
    French – Switzerland
    Beaucoup d'enfants se rappellent les choses [= the things] qu'ils n'osent raconter à leurs parents. = Beaucoup d'enfants se souviennent des [des = « de les »] choses [= the things] qu'ils n'osent raconter à leurs parents.

    Beaucoup d'enfants se rappellent des choses [= (some) things] qu'ils n'osent raconter à leurs parents. = Beaucoup d'enfants se souviennent de choses [= (some) things] qu'ils n'osent raconter à leurs parents.

    Regardless of what the TLFi claims, “se rappeler de is incorrect even if some writers have used it here and there. Therefore you should never use it. As suggested by Geostan it so simple to use se souvenir de in cases where you cannot use the proper construction with se rappeler
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  10. Chocolateh Senior Member

    English
    do these verbs below have "de" after them?
    does this depend on the context?
    • se rappeler (de)
    [...]
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  11. hotpocket

    hotpocket Senior Member

    Douarnenez dans le Finistère
    American English / Boston
    there is no "de" after se rapeller.
    there is, however, "de" after se souvenir
     
  12. Wunibald Senior Member

    Paris, France
    English
    Je me rappelle de certaines choses, comme par exemple avoir entendu que 'de' peut suivre 'se rappeller'
     
  13. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Illogically, but by analogy, many French speakers use de after se rappeler. I would avoid it however, since se is an indirect object, Think of the literal meaning of the verb: to recall something to someone. There is little justification for de, at least with a following noun or pronoun.
     
  14. Montaigne Senior Member

    French, France
    "de" after "se rappeler" is WRONG.Period !
     
  15. passwords Junior Member

    paris and london
    french-france
    je me rappelle de toi =right
    je me rappelle toi= wrong
     
  16. quinoa Senior Member

    french
    Désolé mais même "Je me rappelle de toi" n'est pas correct. "Je me souviens de toi"
     
  17. passwords Junior Member

    paris and london
    french-france
    En effet ca n'est pas correct , n'empeche que tout le monde le dit :)
     
  18. MySweetLohan New Member

    French
    Ah...désolé passwords... mais pas tant de monde que ça !! :)
    "Je me rappelle de quelqu'un (ou quelque chose)" n'est vraiment pas correct, et pas tellement utilisé !
     
  19. StefKE

    StefKE Senior Member

    Brussels
    French - Belgium
    Je suis plutôt d'accord avec passwords, bien que ce ne soit pas correct j'ai quand même l'impression que beaucoup de gens le disent (moi y compris :p). Je suppose que c'est une question de différence entre l'usage et la norme.
    De plus, il me semble que "je me souviens de toi" sonne plus distingué. Vous me direz que c'est normal puisque c'est la seule façon correct de le dire. Mais ça ne fait pas très naturel à l'oral, selon moi.
    (Ce n'est que mon opinion bien sûr...)
     
  20. poorBear Senior Member

    FRANCE
    FRENCH
    Bonsoir

    On dit : se rappeler quelque chose / quelqu'un
    se souvenir de
    Mais dans la langue courante, beaucoup de personnes les utilisent. ;-)

    CF : "Les difficultés du français" ED. Larousse.
     
  21. MySweetLohan New Member

    French
    Oui bien-sûr, c'est vrai que c'est pas mal utilisé, un peu comme "malgré que" ou "autant pour moi" (au lieu d'"au temps pour moi"), ou encore le subjonctif après "après que" qui sont aussi des usages courants mais incorrects ;)...

    Mais ça ne fait pas de mal de se rappeler les règles de français parfois... ou de s'en souvenir ! :)
     
  22. poorBear Senior Member

    FRANCE
    FRENCH

    :thumbsup: Je suis d'accord :D
     
  23. Twinkle_Ukraine Junior Member

    Lviv, Ukraine
    Ukrainian
    My French teacher said it is correct to say: "Personne ne se rappelle les avoir vus à cette soirée", without any prepositions after "se rappeler". Personally, I would say "Personne ne se rappelle de les avoir vus..." Which is correct and why?
     
  24. PayneStewart

    PayneStewart New Member

    Paris, France
    French
    Hi !
    On this one, your teacher is right !
     
  25. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Yes, followed by a past infinitive, de is not used with se rappeler. But in the following sentence, it is perfectly fine.

    Rappelez-vous de me téléphoner = N'oubliez pas de me téléphoner.
     
  26. Francobritannocolombien Senior Member

    Canada
    French - "transatlantic"
    L'historique de l'usage concernant "se souvenir" et "se rappeler" permet d'éclairer un peu la situation:
    1. Jusqu'au XVIe siècle, "souvenir" était strictement impersonnel. On disait "il me souvient".
    2. Peu à peu, la forme pronominale utilisée pour "se rappeler" a influencé la construction du verbe "souvenir" qui a commencé à s'utiliser aussi de façon pronominale, par analogie avec "se rappeler." On a donc commencé à dire "je me souviens de..." au lieu de "il me souvient de..." Ce nouvel usage, d'abord considéré comme fautif, a fini néanmoins par s'établir.
    3. À partir du XVIIIe siècle (ou avant, mais en tout cas attesté au XVIIIe), l'influence s'est faite dans l'autre sens: "je me souviens de" a déteint sur "je me rappelle" et on a commencé à dire "je me rappelle de..." Les puristes, aujourd'hui encore, considèrent cet usage comme courant mais fautif. Plusieurs messages de ce fil en témoignent.
    Plus ça change,...
     
  27. Twinkle_Ukraine Junior Member

    Lviv, Ukraine
    Ukrainian
    Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to find out! I thought it was all right to use "de" before an infinitive but now that you say there are different rules for a past infinitive I'm going to accept it :) My French teacher is French, in fact, and it was really impertinent of me to try to pesuade her I have a better feel for her native language but she hesitated when I pressed the subject so I thought I would ask the people here.

    I am sorry for creating a similar thread, next time I will use Search.
     
  28. Wunibald Senior Member

    Paris, France
    English
    On the contrary, TU - this is a fascinating thread, and it makes clear a fundamental difference between two approaches to language: the French 'académicien' approach, which ties a language to its rules, what is correct and what is not; and the non-academy approach, which accepts that rules of usage are paramount and evolve over time. Francobrittanocolombien's last contribution is an interesting one in this respect.
     

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