FR: tenir compte - accord du participe

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by nemequittepas, May 6, 2011.

  1. nemequittepas Junior Member

    UK
    Czech, English
    I have a grammatical question on whether tenu should be feminine:

    Pour Kniebler, les féministes des années 70 n'ont pas tenu(es) compte du femmes qui veulent d'ête mére.

    Is this right? Thanks
     
  2. maya33 Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Tenu is not an adjective, so you don't have to change it. "Les féministes des années 70 n'ont pas tenu compte des femmes qui voulaient être mères".
     
  3. nemequittepas Junior Member

    UK
    Czech, English
    Merci beaucoup!
     
  4. maya33 Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Avec plaisir!
     
  5. Jpicot1 Junior Member

    Versailles
    français - France
    Hello !

    Maya33's sentence is right but the explanation is not !

    It's not because tenu is not an adjective that it doesn't vary and doesn't take a mark of plural or feminin.

    The reason is the past participle agreement rule.
    Tenu is the past participle.
    In compound tenses, when comes the past participle, there is a simple rule of agreement.

    With the verb avoir the past participle takes the mark of the direct object if it is placed before avoir. It doesn't if it is placed after.

    Julie a pris des chaussures; Des chaussures que Julie a prises.

    Here, in your sentence, it's even simpler; there is no direct object. Tenir compte takes an indirect object. So it can only remain like that.

    But, don't forget that if you had only tenir and not tenir compte you would have to apply the agreement rule of the past participle with avoir.
     
  6. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    But of course there is a direct object! :) The verb is tenir, and its direct object is compte. Together they form a verbal expression. Since the direct object compte does not precede the past participle tenu, there is no agreement.
     
  7. janpol

    janpol Senior Member

    France
    France - français
    Pour ma part, je considère "tenir compte" comme une locution verbale et je ne vois pas un COD dans le mot "compte".
    Si l'on dit que "compte" est COD, on doit conclure que "tenir" qui a un COI est en même temps, dans la même phrase transitif direct et transitif indirect, ce qui est inhabituel
    Par ailleurs, on considère la structure "S + V + COD" comme pertinente or la phrase "il tient compte" est incorrecte. Un complément est indispensable.
     

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