FR: Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by Thomas1, Oct 6, 2007.

  1. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.

    Je deux questions quant à cette question :
    Pourquoi le de avant nouveaux disques n’a pas de s ?
    Est-ce que c'est à cause de l'adjectif que précede le substantif ?


    Comment peut-on reécriver cette question en remplaçant les parties soulignées ?
    Mon essai :
    Tu les lui as acheté de nouveaux pour son anniversaire ?

    Merci d’avance,
    Thomas
     
  2. bloomiegirl

    bloomiegirl Senior Member

    New York
    US English
    Je crois que oui.

    1. Je crois que "acheter de nouveau" = acheter encore une fois. Ici, ce sont les disques qui sont nouveaux.
    2. Je crois qu'on remplace "de nouveau disques" par "en".

    Donc je propose: Tu lui en as acheté pour son anniversaire.

    (Est-ce que les français sont d'accord?)



     
  3. marget Senior Member

    The answer to your first question is yes. As for your second question, I don't think one would replace just the underlined word "disques". If you wanted to say that, you would be emphasizing "disques" as opposed to other things, which doesn't seem to make sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  4. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    La phrase que j'ai donnée dans ma première post est exactement la même comme dans l'exercise que je faissais. Au debut j'ai pensé comme bloomiegirl que la partie «de nouveaux disques» est cela ce que doit être remplacé par un pronom mais l'instuction dit «les groupes soulignés».:confused:

    Tom
     
  5. marget Senior Member

    Je ne suis pas française, mais je suis d'accord. En effet, je crois que l'on aurait dû souligner 'de nouveaux' aussi. Peut-être que c'était sous-entendu.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  6. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    If you cannot replace "de nouveaux" because of the requirements of the exercise, then you must find a way to distinguish what is "de nouveau(x)" - the verb acheter (meaning thus that you are buying disks again) vs. the disks themselves (which are new):

    Je lui en ai acheté de nouveau pour son anniversaire = je lui en racheté pour son anniversaire

    Je lui en ai acheté des nouveaux pour son anniversaire --> Here, it is the disks that are new.
    Since nouveaux no longer precedes the noun it modifies, you may use "des" instead of "de."
     
  7. micka

    micka Senior Member

    Suisse
    Français
    Il me semble qu'il faut un "s" au verbe "acheter":
    "Je lui en ai achetés de(s) nouveaux pour son anniversaire"
     
  8. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    No, I'm sorry. :) There is no agreement with the preceding COD pronoun en.
     
  9. Punky Zoé

    Punky Zoé Senior Member

    Pau
    France - français
    I'm sorry Jann, but I don't agree totally :
     
  10. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    Oops, thank you PZ! This was a copy and paste error, and I will fix it above. :eek:
     
  11. micka

    micka Senior Member

    Suisse
    Français
    Actually, both are possible. ;)
    And according to this rule ( http://www.synapse-fr.com/manuels/PP_EN.htm ), we could agree the past participle.
    Although I agree with you, it's easier always not to agree the past participle when there is "en".
    As we know there are several disks, it would be better to agree the past participle.
     
  12. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    Interesting! :) I didn't know that both were possible, but Le Grevisse confirms […].
    Still, I don't know that I would go so far as to say that "it would be better" to make the past participle agree. Le Grevisse seems to indicate that non-agreement is standard, but that agreement can be acceptable.

    A savoir, the majority of French teachers in the US will mark it incorrect when you make the past participle agree with preceding en in the passé composé. This is not to say we should write according to what they say, but it does mean that the French student should be prepared to cite Le Grevisse to defend his choice if he opts for agreement with en. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  13. micka

    micka Senior Member

    Suisse
    Français
    I said "it would be better" because in this case, we are sure that there are several discs, but you're right, better not to agree it. It makes everything easier, french grammar is already enough complicated, isn't it ?

    Every American (among others) students should print the rule as to take it out when needed :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  14. marget Senior Member

    Any way we look at it, the original sentence has an error. I still think that de nouveaux should simply be underlined alon with the other words.

    Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.
     
  15. Punky Zoé

    Punky Zoé Senior Member

    Pau
    France - français
    I can't see what bothers you, Marget, about nouveaux. Nouveaux can't be replaced here, then why would you want it be underlined ?

    EDIT: I now understand your question, but en could as well replace disques, or nouveaux disques...
     
  16. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Language exercises are often strange. Given that, however, I think these are the two possibilities:

    Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.

    Tu lui en as acheté de nouveaux. [I would not use des; the noun is still understood after nouveaux.]

    Tu as acheté de nouveaux disques à ton frère pour son anniversaire.

    Tu lui en as acheté.

    For Jann. Often when the referent precedes en, the agreement is allowed. Personally, I don't think the quoted example in the link is as common as some others. For instance, when an adverb of quantity precedes en, the agreement is often made, but it is still optional. The one that comes to mind is:

    Combien en avez-vous acheté(s)?

    But for learners of French, these are niceties and are not nor should they be taught.

    Cheers!
     
  17. trench feature Senior Member

    USA Anglais
    Would it be possible to use des with nouveaux since the adjective is now taking the place of the noun?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  18. Punky Zoé

    Punky Zoé Senior Member

    Pau
    France - français
    IMHO, both de nouveaux and des nouveaux are acceptable.
     
  19. itka Senior Member

    France
    français
    "Je lui en ai acheté de nouveau. Et des nouveaux, cette fois !"
     
  20. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    I think you're bringing up another issue. Assuming that you said "de nouveaux disques," then replacing disques with "en" should still leave you with "de nouveaux."

    If, on the other hand, you said "des nouveaux disques [which some people might say], then I would use "des nouveaux" having replaced disques with "en."

    But if you started with de nouveaux disques, I would not change de to des simply because I replaced disques with "en."

    The other issue that I alluded to is a complex one involving an evolving structure and not really part of the current discussion.

    Qu'en penses-tu?
     
  21. Punky Zoé

    Punky Zoé Senior Member

    Pau
    France - français
    I agree with you, you can use de or des in "j'ai acheté de/des nouveaux disques" and in the 'short' form with prepositions too, but there is no reason for changing de in des or des in de while changing de form of the sentence.

    About the use of de rather than des, maybe there is, sometimes, a slight nuance.
    To remain with the disques, I would say :
    j'ai acheté des nouveaux disques = it is not so regular
    j'ai acheté de nouveaux disques = there are novelties in my collection of discs
     

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