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Future anterior

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by hadronic, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Hi,

    How do you translate future anterior in Hebrew ? "I will have written", etc...
    Would you say something like כתבתי מחר, ie, perfect + a word expressing future time frame ?

    Example phrases :
    - when you come, I will have finished.
    - you will have done your best ! But I don't think you can change it.

    Thx!
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  2. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    It converges into future, both sides of the sentence.

    Or: a time frame on the one side and on the other side a present progressive verb/ shem pe'ula

    עד שנגיע הביתה אכתוב את זה
    עד שנגיע הביתה אספיק לכתוב זאת
    עד שנגיע הביתה אני כבר אירדם
     
  3. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Does that last sentence mean "by the time you arrive, I will already have slept", or "I will already be sleeping"? I would rather understand the latter.
     
  4. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    I will already have fallen asleep, I think.
     
  5. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Ok, so concretely "I will already be sleeping" :)
     
  6. ystab Senior Member

    Hebrew
    עד שנגיע הביתה, אני כבר אישן.
     
  7. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Exactly, here is the problem.
    Arielipi chose נרדם which is change-of-state verb. In other words, its past tense is almost identical in meaning to the present tense of the statal verb ישן (if I fell asleep, it means that I sleep).
    That said, עד שנגיע הביתה כבר אירדם and עד שנגיע הביתה כבר אישן both have the same meaning, or more precisely describe the state of affair : my eyes will be closed.
    The primary question would be to translate : when you come home, I will have slept already (my eyes will be open).
    i would have thought that statal vs. change-of-state here would have helped, but it doesn't.
    So how would you sort this out ?
     
  8. ystab Senior Member

    Hebrew
    If it were another verb, I'd rephrase it this way: כשתגיע הביתה אני כבר אסיים לנקות/לאכול/פעלים מן הסוג הזה.
    In this case, since being awake means that one has already slept, I'd write כשתגיע הביתה אני כבר אהיה ער. This is because לסיים לישון doesn't sound right.

    Maybe someone else can think of a better phrasing.

    One more thing, in general, the perfect aspect nuances are quite difficult to express in Hebrew.
     
  9. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    לישון is like the regular/deep sleep while להירדם is a change of state - awake to not awake; more precisely to be radum is to be without conscience, and that is why a person is murdam in surgeries.
     
  10. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    And what about אספיק לישון , as arielipi suggested earlier in another context ?
     
  11. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I think everybody agrees.
     
  12. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    It seems we have now established a word-around to convey the meaning of has fallen asleep but not yet answered the original question.

    In Biblical Hebrew you could use the past tense/perfect conjugation to express the perfect aspect and leave the tense meaning to context. Example:
    וּבֵרַכְתָּ אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, עַל-הָאָרֶץ הַטֹּבָה אֲשֶׁר נָתַן-לָךְ... = ... and you will praize/have praized YHWH thy god in the good land that he will have given to you.

    I suppose this is not an option in Modern Hebrew, right?
     
  13. trigel Senior Member

    English - US, Korean
    AFAIK וּבֵרַכְתָּ can be interpreted as waw-consecutive + suffix conjugation = future narrative and translated as such, perfectness/perfectiveness-neutral. The נָתַן is more ambiguous (=has given/will have given), but considering the context ("For the LORD thy God is bringing thee into a good land...") the speaker seems to mean that God has already given the land at the time of the utterance. Whatever the correct interpretation of biblical tense-aspect forms, I would agree about Modern Hebrew.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  14. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I think berndf was talking about the נתן part, wasn't he ?
     
  15. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    I don't think we can do any better, there's no such grammatical form in modern Hebrew. The three alternatives in arielipi's post #2 are good, other can be proposed.
    נתן can be interpreted as has given / gave, not necessarily as will have given. Onqelos translates it to וְתֵיכוֹל, וְתִסְבַּע--וּתְבָרֵיךְ יָת יְיָ אֱלָהָךְ, עַל אַרְעָא טָבְתָא דִּיהַב לָךְ. Aramaic דיהב means [that he] has given / gave. Deuteronomy 8:10 (פרשת עקב) is indeed just before the Israelites cross river Jordan toward the promised land, and yet the decision to grant them the land is already completed thus past simple or past perfect do the job.

    (seems that I repeat Trigel's post)
     
  16. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Yes.
     
  17. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    ברצוני לחזק את ידיו של אוריגאמי האמונות במלאכת הקודש של דיבור נקי וללא כחל ושרק.

    and more srsly there arent perfects in hebrew; that is why many israelis struggle with english imo.
     

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