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Género y sexismo en el lenguaje

Discussion in 'Cultural Discussions' started by Artrella, Apr 15, 2005.

  1. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng
    El lenguaje no es neutro, sino que transmite una forma de ver la realidad que nos rodea: muchas veces si leemos con detenimiento lo que se escribe o escuchamos lo que se habla nos damos cuenta de que somos sexistas la mayoría de las veces.

    Según el Diccionario de la Real Academia Española la palabra "sexismo", en una de sus acepciones, es entendida como la "discriminación de personas de un sexo por considerarlo inferior a otro". ¿Cuándo se debe utilizar el femenino y cuándo es correcto mantener el masculino, aunque se refiera a una mujer, o el femenino aunque se esté hablando de un hombre?

    ¿Hay que decir "la abogado" (como se tiende a decir ahora en Italia) y "la experto", "la presidente", o "la abogada" , "la experta", "la presidenta"
    ¿Y qué ocurre con las palabras que son comunes a ambos géneros, por ejemplo "periodista"? ¿Se dice "el periodisto"?

    Todo esto sin olvidar que el sexismo en el lenguaje, como en otros campos de la vida social, es el reflejo de una milenaria discriminación de las mujeres.

    Muchas mujeres prefieren que se las llame "señora embajador" "señora ministro" "señora presidente" en lugar de "señora embajadora/ministra/presidenta" En Argentina todavía no hay consenso con respecto a este tema.

    Qué pasa cuándo decimos "los argentinos"?? No decimos "las argentinas"... habría que decir "los argentinos y las argentinas"?

    Esto marca una tendencia muy en boga en la Internet, justamente acá en WR nosotros mismos la usamos>>> la famosa "@" en forer@s, bienvenid@...etc.

    ¿Por qué decimos "mujer pública" para referirnos a una prostituta , en contraposición con "hombre público" para hablar de un personaje importante ?¿Es esto una representación de discriminación? ¿Se evitaría el sexismo modificando la lengua? ¿ Podemos anteponer el lenguaje a la sociedad o debe acompañar su evolución?

    ¿ Qué opinan ustedes ? ¿Hay que reformar algo o se queda todo como está?
    Esto no solo pasa en español... qué creen los que hablan portugués, italiano, francés, alemán....

    Voy a traducir esto al inglés y lo voy a poner aquí para que todos lo puedan leer.

    Saludos!
     
  2. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng
    The language is not neutral, but it transmits a way of seeing the reality that surrounds us: often if we read thoroughly what we write or listen what we speak, we realise that we are sexist the majority of the times.

    According to the DRAE the word "sexism", in one of its meanings, is understood as the " persons' discrimination of a sex for considering the other one to be low ". When is it necessary to use the feminine one and when is it correct to support the masculine one, though it refers to a woman or the feminine one though one is speaking about a man?

    It is necessary to say " la abogado(attorney male)" as it is now the tendency in Italy (l’avvocato instead of l’avvocatessa) and "la experto" (the expert-male)", " la presidente ", or " la abogado (attorney-male) ", or , "la experta (expert-female)", "la presidenta (president-female) "
    And what happens with words which are common to both genres, for example “periodista (journalist)"? Do we say “el periodisto "?

    All that without forgetting that the sexism in the language, as in other fields of the social life, is the reflex of a thousand-year-old discrimination of the women.

    Many women prefer to be called "señora embajador (Mrs ambassador –male)" "señora ministro (mrs minister- male)" "señora presidente (mrs president-male)" instead of " señora embajadora/ministra/presidenta " In Argentina there is no consensus with regard to this topic yet.

    What happens when we say " los argentinos (the male Argentinians) "? We do not say " las argentinas (the female Argentinians " ... would it be necessary to say " las argentinas y los argentinos”?

    This marks a trend very in vogue in the Internet, precisely here in WR we use it >>> the famous @ in forer@s, bienvenid@s... etc.

    Why do we say "mujer pública (public woman)" to refer to a prostitute, in contraposition with “hombre public” (public man) to talk about an important social personality? Is this a representation of discrimination? Would sexism be avoided by modifying language? Can language prevail over society or it must accompany its evolution?

    What do you think? It is necessary to reform something or everything remains as it is?
    This not only happens in Spanish ... what are the opinions of those who speak Portuguese, Italian, French, and German....

    I will appreciate your opinions.
     
  3. Agnès E.

    Agnès E. Senior Member

    France
    France, French
    Bonjour Artrella :)
    Waow, what a nice start for a debate!!
    Actually, I live in a Latin culture country, where women (especially in the South where I come from) are still seen as inferior to men (in spite of the politically correctness in use in the medias).
    In Paris things are really different, but Paris is (by far!!) not France.

    To come back to pure language:
    Madame l'ambassadeur (masc. form) = the ambassador's wife
    Madame l'ambassadrice (fem. form) = a woman working as ambassador

    Things are even more complicated with the word "directrice". In average French minds, this word is connected to a school headmistress and is not commonly said in companies, where we use the masculine form (Madame le Directeur Général...., elle est directeur du département ventes, le directeur des achats est madame XXX).

    For a doctor : monsieur le docteur, madame... le docteur.
    Etc.
    As if women were still feeling they do not deserve having their own place in the working field. And men usually smile with contempt, stating that creating a feminine form is stupid and useless, as French has always used the masculine one, which... works well!

    What can you say against this? :(
     
  4. Silvia

    Silvia Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    Artrella, avvocato is male attorney or lawyer. The reason why it's used for women too is that:
    1 - it's shorter
    2 - it doesn't disclose gender, making both sexes equal
     
  5. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Thank you Silvia for your explanation!
     
  6. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    So you say monsieur le docteur...madame le docteur... same as in Spanish, with certain professions, but we say "la Doctora" for instance me... I am "Doctora Nilda MR"(I'm an accountant and we are called "doctors") and so is my sister "Doctora CMR" because she is a medical doctor. And I am "una contadora" whereas my male coleagues are "un contador"... but there are still some "señora ministro" and "señora ministra" it depends on who is speaking, you can take your pick in this field.

    What can we say against this??? Well, what we are saying now. :thumbsup:
     
  7. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Se pasa en todas las lenguas con género masculino y género feminino. Es algo que heredamos de tiempos menos igualitarios, posiblemente.
    Pero yo cuestiono si habría algo de útil a ganar en cambiar nuestro lenguaje.

    Yo creo que no. Mucho más importante y real que el sexismo en el lenguaje es el sexismo en el trabajo, en la política, en la ley. En mi opinión, son eses tipos de sexismo que se necesita combatir.
     
  8. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Sí... pero todo se combate desde el lenguaje Outsider...
     
  9. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng
    I've read an article where it is stated that this sexism exists in English as well, in spite of being a language without "fem/masc" differentiation (morphologically speaking).

    Examples of this situation are:

    A "bold" man is considered "courageous" whereas a woman is considered "aggressive"

    A woman is easy when she is easy to seduce...but do we have "easy men"?? Do we say "He's easy"?

    An innovative woman is "pushy" but a man is "original"

    An insistent woman is "hysterical" whereas a man is "persistent"

    A politically involved woman is " over-emotional"... a male is "committed"...

    mmmmm......... :rolleyes:
     
  10. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Not entirely, though. There's been a lot of talk about whether one should say "businessman" or "businessperson" when the sex of the person is unknown, for example.
     
  11. yolanda_van huyck Senior Member

    CASTELLON, SPAIN
    SPAIN_SPANISH
    Hola
    según lo que recuerdo de mis estudios universitarios, aquí ve mi explicación; me extenderé un poco porque es muy interesante, espero no aburriros...
    Según la filóloga Ana Maria Echaide, el 84% de los sustantivos españoles no tienen variación genérica, muchos de los cuales designan animales sexuados, que son masculinos o femeninos por razones arbitrarias. Por lo tanto, tan sólo el 16% de nuestros sustantivos presenta flexión de género del tipo "niño/niña".
    De todos modos, yo haría algunas observaciones referentes al género:
    1. en español se emplea el masculino plural (que es el término no marcado, es decir, indiferente) con valor de masculino y femenino: los padres=el padre+la madre, los reyes=el rey+la reina. Por presión feminista se está haciendo frecuente el empleo de las dos formas, masculina y femenina, coordinadas en lugar del masculino plural, contra la tradición de la lengua.
    2. Un grupo reducido de sustantivos, pero de empleo muy frecuente, cambian de género mudando la base léxica:macho/hembra, caballo/yegua...
    3. En algunos casos, el genero puede tener el valor de determinar el sentido de sustantivos que tienen el mismo significante pero distinto significado: el cólera/la cólera, el pez/la pez, el frente/la frente...
    4. Los sustantivos femeninos que empiezan por "á" o por "há" tónicas, cuando van determinados por el artículo, exigen la presencia del alomorfo femenino "el": el agua/las aguas... (con excepción del nombre de las letras "la a", "la hache")
    ***En cuanto a los cargos, el tema es un poco contradictorio: mientras, por una parte, intentamos no hacerlo de manera "machista" y decir "la presidenta", "la médica"... en muchas ocasiones, estas mismas consideran que al utilizar el género femenino, se está desprestigiando su trabajo... en fin, nunca sabremos como acertarla...

    Muchos saludos

    Yoli
     
  12. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Weird, I'm so happy with your comments!!
    You know? I haven't thought about the commercials... you are right! I hate those commercials where women beautifully dressed with long painted nails appear talking about their hair or their soaps...aarrgghhh... I don't do that!!!
    I don't even know which brand of soap I use!!!
    However I don't want to erradicate the male-female differenciation, because it exists, thank God! We are different, but DIFFERENT ... NOT BETTER/WORSE...not higher/lower.
    So if I am "una mujer alegre" it's because I'm happy, I'm friendly, I enjoy people, parties, etc... not because I am a prostitute.
    If I am an "easy woman" is because I am open minded, and not a promiscuous woman.

    Am I right?

    PS: Weird he contestado en inglés, si necesitás la traducción avisame, sí? pero creo que vos lo entendés. :p
     
  13. yolanda_van huyck Senior Member

    CASTELLON, SPAIN
    SPAIN_SPANISH
    estoy completamente de acuerdo contigo, pero como filóloga que soy, te puedo asegurar que los periodos cambiantes de una lengua son larguísimos, y tardará en haber un cambio oficial. De todos modos, yo siempre he adoptado la forma femenina cuando es femenina, y hablo de "la ministra", "la médica", " la abogada", le pese a quien le pese; no creo estar ofendiendo a nadie, sino todo lo contrario, me refiero a que, oficios que antes eran considerados "para hombres" pueden ser desarrollados por una mujer con la misma celeridad y profesionalidad; si nos hemos acoplado a ese desarrollo, por qué no reconocerlos lingüísticamente?

    entonces, estamos de acuerdo, Weir.

    Muchos saludos

    Yoli
     
  14. Agnès E.

    Agnès E. Senior Member

    France
    France, French
    Well, Artrella, perhaps this phenomenon just belongs to a general male chauvinism which is expressed in every field of life, comprising language; if it happens in an English-speaking country, the words put on it will be in English... Just translate them into any other language, you'll get a general earthling male chauvinism... :mad: I guess these word interpretations are valid all over the world!
     
  15. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    No estoy de acuerdo. Hay muchísimas lenguas en África y Asia que no tienen género masculino y género feminino. ¿Les parece que las mujeres sean mejor tratadas allá que en Europa?
     
  16. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Jejeje... :D
     
  17. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    De ninguna manera las mujeres son mejor tratadas en estos continentes (ojo!!! en ciertos países de estos continentes). Pero estamos considerando dónde son "menos maltratadas"??
    Si no se hace nada por evitar las muertes por apedreamiento... se va a hacer algo por el lenguaje? No lo sé. Pero podemos empezar por algo antes que quejarnos por lo que no se hace.
     
  18. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Sin duda, pero no creo que cambiar nuestras lenguas pueda hacernos menos sexistas. En mi opinión, primero hay que cambiar mentalidades, políticas, leyes, y entonces el linguaje se cambiará también.
     
  19. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Outsider, sabés cómo se llama eso?? UTOPIA!!
     
  20. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Intentar cambiar mentalidades cambiando palabras es lo que me parece utopia...
    Y un desperdicio de energía.
     
  21. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Bueno gracias a Dios, no todos pensamos igual. Yo creo que uno cambia mentalidades y otras cosas a través de la palabra. Si yo intento cambiar algo mediante insultos, seguramente lo que cambie no va a ser para mejor. Si intento usar un lenguaje no agresivo, seguro que lograré algo bueno. Los intercambios de ideas para cambiar mentalidades se hacen a través de palabras y no de puños. Al menos en una sociedad civilizada. Entonces si mejoramos nuestro lenguaje y nuestras palabras, creo que podremos llegar más lejos que si permanecemos enfrascados en tiempos remotos.
     
  22. Edwin

    Edwin Senior Member

    Tampa, Florida, USA
    USA / Native Language: English
    Not much has been said about the efforts in English to use more gender neutral words. In my lifetime I have seen a number of such changes. For example, we used to have chairmen of departments. Now we have chairs or chairpersons. Fortunately in English the names of almost all professions are gender neutral. There are some exceptions such as actress and actor. But I notice that lately most actresses call themselves actors.

    The real difficulty in making English gender neutral is with the use of pronouns. Some men (and women I suppose) solve the problem by exclusively using female pronouns when speaking in generalities. Some alternate in using he and she, his and her. Some use the compound he/she or his/her. Some use they, them and their as singular pronouns. And, there have been suggestions to introduce gender neural pronouns. I cannot recall now what the recommended replacement for he/she and him/her was. It was simple, but obviously has not caught on.

    I see that Wikipedia has an excellent discussion of the topic of gender neutral language (or non-sexist language) as applied to English as well as many other languages. The comment about Finnish is particularly interesting. Finnish is apparently naturally one of the most gender neutral languages in the world. The point is made that Finland was the first European country to give women the right to vote, but surveys show that their attitudes towards women are not significantly different from other European countries.

    You can read all the interesting details here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutral

    Note that as Wikipedia allows, the neutrality of the article itself is disputed. See the notice at the top where you are directed to the talk page for a discussion. For example the entry is titled Non-sexist language but some say it would be better to call it gender neutral language. Nevertheless I found it by searching on gender neutral. :)
     
  23. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    En relación a este tema, todavía no sé qué pensar respecto a cambiar o no el uso de las palabras, pero si puedo contribuir respecto al uso "neutro" de las palabras. Me ha pasado tanto en este foro como en otros en los que he participado que si uno no dice explícitamente el género al cual pertenece, se estima que uno es "hombre". Como se dice en inglés, el hombre es el "default", o algo así como "la norma", "lo normal". Por ejemplo, a pesar de que "Phryne" es un nombre femenino, como muchos no lo saben y en el nombre en sí no da ninguna pauta de género (como terminar con la letra "a"), muchos tienden a creer que soy varón. OK, puse un dibujo de Homero Simpson como mi avatar, sin embargo, en los otros foros en los cuales participé no tenía ni avatar, ni un sobrenombre que revelara mi identidad, y aún así la gran mayoría me creyó hombre, incluyendo mujeres. Sólo algunos pocos dudaron y preguntaron, pero nadie me creyó mujer desde el inicio.

    Qué creen al respecto?

    Regarding this subject I have no opinion to language use; however, there's something to say about the "neutral use of words". In several forums that I have been participating, this one included, it caught my attention that unless one explicitly asserts his/her own gender, people believe that one is a man by default. For instance, although "Phryne" is a female name, as most people don't know, they tend to believe that I am a guy. OK, I chose Homer Simpson's picture as my avatar; however, in other forums I have no avatar or a screen name that might reveal my identity. Even so, people, including women, thought that I was a man. Only a few had doubts and asked, but none even thought of me as a girl.

    What do you think about this issue?
     
  24. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Chicas, es verdad, todos nos sorprendimos al ver la foto de Weird al ver que es ¡una chica!, y vos Phyrne... también me sorprendiste!! Me ha pasado con otros foristas y como soy super curiosa tuve que preguntar en forma privada con quién tenía el gusto de compartir el foro.
     
  25. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    I agree that the assumptions of the gender of a forero show unfortunate sexist habits. You are a proof case; I am another. I hybridize daylilies.
    They are beautiful. I use one as an avatar. Result: many people assumed I was a woman because I use a flower for an avatar.

    I changed the avatar to a gorila for a while. People began to assume that I was masculine. Now I've said to myself, "to hell with other people's dumb stereotypes. I like pretty flowers. I'm a man. If someone has a problem with that, it is their problem and not mine."

    I have tried to teach my children to avoid sexist generalities, to respect others for their demonstrated capabilities, and not to assume that one is able or unable to do anything well based on gender. Language can help a little in changing assumptions and perceptions, but the change in behavior is even more useful.

    saludos,
    Cuchu
     
  26. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Good morning Cuchufléte (I like it with tilde)... well maybe you have been taken as a woman because some people don't know about the origin of your nickname.

    I really like these words " to hell with other people's dumb stereotypes. ..." I think the same, though I had to change my avatar...because it seemed that those dolliez showed that I was some... "easy woman"????

    You see, sexism is alive nowadays and not only in language, I mean in words, but in a simple avatar...

    Saludos, Nil :)
     
  27. Fernando Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain, Spanish
    The problem is that people cares whether you are a woman or not. In Internet people should not. Maybe I am a girl though my nick is 'Fernando'. Who cares?

    Anyway, people assumes many things, not only your sex, also if you are and 'easy woman', as you have pointed out. People assumes if you are tall or short, if you like sushi and how many armchairs you have in your house. We are 'trained' to assume too many things from too few data, because is the way we are obligued to work most times.

    But this does not depend on the sexism of the language. The language gives no direct clues about if I am a short or tall and we assume things anyway.

    In real life I do care if the person whom I am talking to. Do I need to say why?
     
  28. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    OK, we shouldn't care, but somehow, our unconscious does! That's why it's very common that people try to figure out what you are, what you eat or what music you like. In the USA people care what race/ethnicity you are and for many of them, it defines their identity. However, this is not the same as eating Sushi or Punjabi food, since food is a matter of taste and it is not connected to any kind of oppression. Gender and Race are, though.



    My point is that people seem to have a "default" for gender (and in some countries for race too). The fact that they think that one is a man before proven otherwise gives us a lot of information about the society in which we live. It may seem like language and this "gender default" have nothing to do with each other, but I think it's quite the opposite. All languages that are considered to be sexist have "male" as the default. I've never heard of a language that has "female" as the default. It seems to me that sexism in language and gender default go hand in hand. After all, language structures our mind and our minds created language!



    Saludos australes :)
     
  29. Like an Angel

    Like an Angel Senior Member

    Córdoba - Argentina
    Argentina - Spanish
    ¿Esto te pasó con hombres y mujeres o sólo com mujeres? me da la sensación de que si el que tipea es hombre cree, a excepción de que con quien chatee tenga un nick que de la pauta a que es un hombre, que es mujer y cuando la que tipea es una mujer cree que todos son hombres, con la misma excepción, no creo que sea como vos decís porque es "la norma" o "lo normal", creo que es más bien culpa de nuestras locas mentes.-

    En cuanto al tema principal del hilo, creo que las mujeres hemos ganado mucho terreno y se nos respeta más que antes, y eso no depende de que se nos llame "la abogado" o "la abogada", es un título simplemente, creo que hay que buscar otras formas de luchar por nuestros derechos. En cuanto a presidente, quepara mí era neutro, no me gusta mucho eso de la presidenta, prefiero decir la presidente, -y después se quejan cuando la Su dice la imbatibla :D-pero no tengo mucho conocimiento en el tema como para opinar.-
     
  30. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng
    MJFriend I agree with you, I assume that everybody is a man :D ...and then....surprise!!. Yes you are male by default.
    Marianis.. yes, Susana and "imbatibla"...I think we should use neutral words such as Phyrne suggested, and just the article will give us the gender of the noun we are talking about.

    So "la/el imbatible"; "la/el presidente"; "la/el ministre"... well this is kind of ridiculous now... but ...in some years maybe we get used to using them.

    Besides, why do we need gender in nouns? English do not have genders in nouns or in articles.... What does it matter if a table is a she or a he? Not in the case of animals, there I find myself with a problem, I don't know how to call a "she-dog" >> I remember Araceli once said this. You say a woman/man/girl/boy but animals??? OK, we have cow and bull... and maybe a couple more. But the rest?

    Now I have to think more insane things.... :eek:
     
  31. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    Hola! Cómo andais? :) Bueno, uno se puede hacer la cabeza de cualquier cosa cuando chatea, pero cuando hablo de lo "normal" me refiero a que la gente en la mayoría de las sociedades piensa en el hombre como "por defecto" (default) en el sentido en que a no ser que des señal de lo opuesto la gente tiende a pensar incoscientemente que sos hombre. Por ejemplo, si yo te cuento que había una persona esperándome en la oscuridad de la noche frente a la puerta de mi depto, la gente tiende a imaginarse a un hombre, o si cuento que fuí al médico, también piensa así (pensá que en inglés "médico" no tiene género e igual así piensan que es hombre). Yo creo que es parte de nuestro inconciente colectivo, o algo así que nos define como sociedad (sexista) ...
    Y esto va más allá de que las mujeres estemos mejor que antes, ya que todavía nos falta un largo camino por recorrer. Y es más, habiendo vivido afuera del país noté con muchas más obviedad que en Argentina es bastante más marcada la opresión que en otros países del mundo... y más de lo que yo creía.

    Besos femeninos! ;)
     
  32. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    Arti, darling...

    A female dog is called a bitch (not the insult!)
    A female horse is called a mare
    That's all I know of... :confused:
     
  33. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng
    Phyrna...now that I know you are a "she"...hee...hee... yes we have "bitch" but I cannot imagine an English speaker saying "This is a big bitch!!" or " Hey, look!! This is Mr.X's bitch! She/it is beautiful!" :eek:
    What about "cat"??
     
  34. Fernando Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain, Spanish
    Extrañamente, en este foro, si no hay más datos, yo pienso que mi interlocutor es una mujer.

    Además, como indica Phryne, en inglés 'doctor' no tiene género y todo el mundo tiende igual a identificarlo como masculino. No está en el lenguaje, está en las cabezas.

    En cuanto a la indicación, creo que era de Phryne también, relativa a que este tema es más delicado porque supone discriminación, no seré yo el que niegue la discriminación de la mujer (al menos antes de 1970 en Occidente y hasta ahora 'elsewhere'), pero no convirtamos el idioma en un campo de minas.

    Los calvos son calvos, los gordos, gordos, los negros, negros, etc. Que impere el respeto. Los términos despectivos deben desterrarse (calvorota, bola de sebo, negro de...) pero no destrocemos el idioma.

    "había una persona esperándome en la oscuridad de la noche frente a la puerta de mi depto, la gente tiende a imaginarse a un hombre"

    Eso es porque pensamos que todos los criminales son hombres (lo cual, por cierto, es estadísticamente cierto, y de forma abrumadora).

    Por cierto, "persona" es femenino, y es el género por defecto de hombre+mujer, más adecuado que "hombre" por defecto.
     
  35. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Discriminación! ;)
     
  36. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Sí, pero cuando hablamos de la raza humana decimos "El hombre apareció.....en la tierra..." Dios hizo al "hombre" y después a la mujer...Eran todos hombres antes!!! y además nadie dice "la mujer apareció en la tierra.."
    Siempre se habla de la evolución del hombre, que se originó en el mono, etc, etc. Nunca he escuchado que se diga "la evolución de la mujer".

    Sí podemos decir "los humanos" en vez de "el hombre" ... o las humanas???


    :)
     
  37. Fernando Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain, Spanish
    The reason is simple, Artrella: Anybody can imagine a woman descending from an ape, but we can easily imagine a man descending from an ape.

    The consequence is positive: Evolution: Fish-Frogs-Reptiles-Mammals-Apes-Man-Woman

    About the Bible: According the Genesys, God created a MAN (male) and then a Woman. Of course all of them (Adam) were men before. Blame God, not language.

    By the way, according the Bible, God created BOTH of them.

    Again, I can not even say 'personas' as a masculine word. I am forced to be femenine!

    Paso al español: Puedes decir 'la raza humana' (una expresión de lo más normal) o 'la especie humana', o hablar de lA maravilla, lA belleza, lA grandeza, lA perfección, lA santidad y la honradez, que deben alumbrar nuestrA vida o nuestrA existencia en lA Tierra, hasta que lA Santísima Trinidad tenga a bien acogernos.

    lA Paz sea contigo.
     
  38. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng




    I don't get this. Man, then woman? In my 28 years of life I've never heard of an evolutionary theory that represented gender separately!







    Fer, my darling, if I believe that the Bible was written by men (the apostles), I can certainly assert that “men” thought of creating Adam first and then Eve. See, the problem here is that religion is something not all people agree on, so it’s kind of hard to use it as a universal argument because most people will feel compelled to reject it. For instance, I would blame whoever wrote the Bible for the language used there…







    Eve was created from Adam's rib. Did you forget that? God is also represented as a "MAN" and referred as "HIM"!





    What a boring language it would have been without the feminine gender! Now that I think about it, "male" only exists in opposition. There would be no "male" if there was no "female". Otherwise it would have only been genderless.



    Saludos femeninos
     
  39. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    Bueno quizás no descendamos de un mono... pero de un hombre?? mmmm!!!

    lA muerte, LA Guerra, La destrucción, La pobreza, La tristeza... bueno no todas las femeninas son buenas...

    Pero "Dios" es hombre. Ya está!! No le demos más vueltas al asunto.. no?

    Y con tu espíritu!!


    _________________________________________________________________

    Well, maybe we don't descend from a male-ape... but from a man??? mmm!!!

    Death, War, Destruction, Poverty, Sadness... well not all the feminine abstract nouns are good ones... (NOTE: in Spanish all these words are "feminine")

    But "God" is male. OK!! Don't say anything else... right?




    And with your spirit! ( I hope this is correct in English, I don't go to Church)
     
  40. Fernando Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain, Spanish
    Just for kidding, obviously(?). The point is that most people seem to be more distance from animal to men than from animal to woman and that, creating (by God or evolution) men first and then woman is not insulting to woman.

    :D

    The Genesys was probbaly written by men but not by apostles, certainly.



    You are right and this is obvious sexism (I am not joking here). Anyway, in modern theology god is sexless. Though it is referred by "Father" there is a lot of modern theology that speaks of him as "Mother" also.

    Jesus is a man, God is sexless, Holy Spirit is masculine and sexless and Holy Trinity is femenine. I see almost a tie.

    Let us discuss now the sex of the angels. ;)


    Awful!



    ¿Salutaciones?
     

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