German Wüste (was: Germanic *wuste)

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by john welch, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    G. wuste < PIE * va:stos. It is possibly Greek vatika. Gaelic form is fas. Is there an Iranian / Avestan form *vat -.?
     
  2. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Can you explain what you mean? I don't know any word wuste in any Germanic language. What does it mean and in which Germanic language?
     
  3. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    I don't have umlaut, so it's wu'ste ..sorry.
     
  4. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    You mean German (not Germanic) Wüste = desert?
     
  5. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    German: wüst < Old High German wuosti < Proto-Germanic *wōst- (Old English wōsti, Old Saxon wēste) < Proto-IE *wāsto- 'wasted, empty' (Old Irish fās, Latin vāstus).
    Indo-Iranian wāshud 'opening, dispersing' could be related (pure guess :D though I would expect something like *vāšta in Avestan if it came from Proto-IE).
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  6. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Yes I was throwing a net to see if the form *vat existed in Gmc or any European origins. It is Skt and also Etruscan , and perhaps Greeks borrowed it from Phoenicians, as it is in south Greece at Voies, with the Persian toponym "Paradisi" there and Rhodes. Etr. "vatieke" as "dedicated (shrine)" shows the change from "vast. desert" to "royal enclosure. walled garden" as in Persian desert-paradises. Greeks didn't paint paradise scenes and maybe Germanics and Celts didn't.
     
  7. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I assume you are thinking of Middle Persian wišād “open, loose” (adjective), wišādan “to open, to let loose” (> New Persian gušādan). This comes from the preverb wi- plus the root hā “to bind”; wi+hā+tani > wišādan means “unbind” and is not related to the IE “waste” words.
     
  8. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    The <Β> in Βοιές has nothing to to with the <W> in Wüste or waste or the <V> in Latin vastus.
     
  9. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Yes at Voies /Boios, the common name for that region is Vatika. It seems to be Laconian with a 'Vatika' village near a hot spring suggesting the semantic 'paradise' connection with Skt vataka.
     
  10. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I know that Bernd explained this already, but let’s have another go. Modern Greek /v/ is classical Greek and Indo-European /b/. So it cannot have anything to do with Sanskrit /v/.
     
  11. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Right. Then probably the toponym "Vatika" in the extreme south is a loan-word of Tsakonian (exo Laconian) conservative dialect, as the word seems unknown in dictionaries. It means "oil of olive trees". In Gugarat and Pali Sanskrit, "vatika" means "garden, orchard" connected with warrior-deities Kalki and Hanuman. Perhaps borowed from Hurrian-Phoenicia and maybe is also in Etruscan "vatieke" meaning "dedicated" shrine with walled enclosure, like the Indian "vatika" garden design system.
     
  12. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Also in Doric Greek (from which Tsakonian is derived), a B was a B was a B and not a Ϝ, the ancient Greek letter for the sound /w/. To give some credence to your theory you'd need to find an ancient spelling of the name without a Ϝ, or at least without a B, because in later Doric Greek the Ϝ was omitted. He do not know for sure, if Doric had really lost the sound as all other Greek dialects or whether it just wasn't written any more.

    In summary, the likelihood is that you're casing a red herring.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  13. sotos Senior Member

    Greek
    The Gr. vatika (found in some local dialects only) possibly comes from the w. βάτος (shrub) and means "a field with shrubs", i.e. the opposite of cultivated gardens.
     
  14. apmoy70

    apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    And if I may add, the names of regions «Βόϊον» & «Βοιές» are cognate to «Βοιωτία» Boeotia < PIE *gʷṓws, cattle
     
  15. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Batos is interesting. It's not *patos as in PIE *vetos> Skt vatsa, Cl Gr petranos, (etos) ,Mod Gr beteranos.
    Maybe PIE* vastos> Gr batos?
    The semantic Persian paradise was a "vast" hunting estate with watered gardens in the desert. Perhaps the Iranian-Indic vatika was culturally foreign to ancient Greece and survived outside written texts. It exists today without background.
     
  16. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Ok, fourth attempt: Greek Beta is not derived from PIE /w/.
     
  17. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    I'm presuming a loan-word due to Persian-Gr cultural difference. Vatika from Cl Gr *batos-ika is:
    suffix of nouns that denote a body of facts, knowledge, principles, ... ( Greek -ika, neuter plural of -ikos).
    So Vatika "olive oil" is : "body of facts of field shrubs" which is unusual semantics.
    A Greek common-name (slang?) for the basic oil of life is not likely to be a modern loanword. Maybe vatika was copied phonetically as used in a prestigious way by Persian-Phoenicians, associated with royals / deities.
     
  18. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    I have difficulties following you. Who should have exactly borrowed what from whom? Please remember that /v/ existed only in Persian. Neither Classical Greek nor Phoenician had this sound.
     
  19. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    I'm claiming that in classic Greek era , Laconians borrowed the possibly Phoenician vatika as a common, unwritten slang term for a garden or olive grove.( Possibly in derogatory way as in royal "throne" > "toilet". Islamic Crescent> croissant "pastry"). As *batos-ika seems a wrong etymology, then maybe the verbal term "vatika" was expressed with whatever consonant fitted audibly to the foreign sound and finally was written onto maps with /v/.
     
  20. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Well, /vatika/ is not a possible Phonetician word. It is not unimportant what initial sound you assume because you need to demonstrate that the development path is based on testable rules; otherwise the whole thing is just baseless speculation.
     
  21. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Another speculation is that Persian presence in Greece-Ionia gave a direct loan. Or that Greeks in Bactria-Punjab brought the word home to coastal Greece. A domestic etymology appears difficult.
     
  22. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    There is no such word in Persian.

    Nor in Bactrian.
     
  23. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    If there is no other logical explanation, the Greek word may have been borrowed from a pre-IE language of the region.
     
  24. apmoy70

    apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    I found the page of the monthly local newspaper «Τα Βάτικα» that has a brief history of the region. Thus:
    "-The city was founded by the Mycenaeans in the 14-15th c. BCE under the name οf «Βοιαί» Βœǽ.
    -Ιn early 2nd c. BCE, the Roman general, Titus Flaminus, declared the coastal cities of Laconia free, and the Community of Laconians is founded. In the years of Augustus it is called Community of the Free Laconians («Κοινόν τῶν Ἐλευθερολακώνων») & becomes an area of important economic activity. It is also an eminent port, and coins with the inscription «Βοιατῶν» Βœatôn (of Boeaeans) are issued.
    -By the Middle Ages, «Βοιαί» Βœǽ has become an insignificant village, totally destroyed by the 375 CE earthquake –even part of the city had been submersed in the sea.
    -Several settlements of no importance, appear by the name «Βάτικα» ['vatika] a derivation of «Βοιάτικα» [vi'atika] that are under the immediate threat of pirates."
    So, the modern name «Βάτικα» is nothing more than the corrupted «Βοιάτικα» of the ancient «Βοιαί»
     
  25. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    A very good answer from apmoy.
     
  26. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Sanskrit arose in BMAC Bactria and Hurrians in Mittani seem to have had Vedic contact. Persians were in Gangetic plain when Sanskrit was present (and entered Greece and Ionia). Greeks also were in Punjab where Skt was known.
    Boios was an Heraklid warrior in Laconia but I'm told by a Voies travel agent that vatika means olive oil. It also appears as a commercial brand of hair oil. Gr /atika/ /tika/ don't appear in dictionaries (classic or modern, inflected /uninflected). I would like to know your comments on boios-atika as suffix and semantics of "olive oil".
     
  27. xari Junior Member

    portuguese
    Is this word related to Russian пустой?
     
  28. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Nor in Old Persian. Transliterated <v> = /w/.
     
  29. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    So it reduces to Sanskrit vatika as speculative source of possible Cl Gr and Mod Gr loanword vatika, from Indian contact.
    This may follow the example of Latin Vatican loanword Mod Gr Vaticano. veteran (n.) from PIE *wetus- "year" (cf. Sanskrit vatsa- "year," ) Mod Gr . veteran (n.) βετεράνος,
     
  30. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Not classical, only modern Greek. Greek β for Latin v is only plausible for medieval or modern loans, not for classical ones.
     

Share This Page