Gerundium Englisch - German

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Bristo, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Bristo New Member

    German
    Hallo. wie ich weiss verwendet man das gerundium mit einer +ing form.

    ist dieser satz richtig ausgedrückt? \ is this sentence correct?

    I advise him becoming a pilot

    Thank you.
     
  2. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    Bei diesem Verbum (advise) benutzt man den Infinitiv mit zu: I'm advising hin to become a pilot. Im Allgemeinem hängt es vom Verbum ab, ob man Gerundium, Infinitiv mit to, oder Infinitiv ohne to benutzt. Leider geben die englischen Diktionäre meistens nicht an, welche der Formen bei dem jeweiligen Verbum möglich sind. Das ist oft nur aus den angebenen Beispielen zu erraten.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  3. Gernot Back

    Gernot Back Senior Member

    Cologne, Germany
    German - Germany
    Das Problem ist im Englischen wohl vor allem dann virulent, wenn die betreffende Verbergänzung ein Ziel oder eine Richtung angibt (in unserem Beispiel ein Berufsziel). Da ist dann gar nicht klar, ob dieses "to" der Marker für den Infinitiv ist oder eine Richtungspräposition.

    So hat es sich mir z.B. auch erst spät erschlossen, warum es auf Englisch einerseits

    I plan to meetØ you on Tuesday.
    (noun clause, direct object)

    heißt, andererseits aber

    I look forward to meeting you on Tuesday.
    (prepositional phrase)
     
  4. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    Für den native speaker ist es leicht zu entscheiden, ob to Präposition oder Teil des Infinivs ist, indem er es durch ein einfaches Nomen ersetzt:

    I'm planning a gettogether on Tuesday und I look forward to our gettogether.

    Plan kann übrigens zufälligerweise mit to-Infinitiv oder mit Präposition und Gerundium benutzt werden---aber mit einer anderen Präposition:
    I'm planning to meet you on Tuesday und I plan on meeting you on Tuesday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  5. djweaverbeaver Senior Member

    English Atlanta, GA USA
    Ich möchte nicht versäumen zu erwähnen, dass es einen kleinen Bedeutungsunterschied gibt:

    I advise him to become a pilot = Ich rate/empfehle ihm, Pilot zu werden.
    I advise him on becoming a pilot. = Ich erteile ihm Beratung zum Pilot werden./ Ich berate mich mit ihm über das Pilotwerden.
     
  6. Bristo New Member

    German
    Vielen dank!
     
  7. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I advise him to become a pilot.
    But: I advise him against becoming a pilot.
     
  8. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    A major linguist just posted a long essay on just this topic, prompted by the realization that a German linguist had made the wrong choice between gerund and infinitive. He points out that the German's English is "excellent: clear, precise, nicely composed, close to flawless", and yet...

    She wrote Arnim von Stechow … has never stopped to present me with thought provoking questions. The American linguist's initial interpretation was
    And it's true: Arnim von Stechow … has never stopped to present me with thought provoking questions means something very different from Arnim von Stechow … has never stopped presenting me with thought provoking questions. Stop in the first sentence means ist nie vorbeigekommen, and the second means hat nie aufgehört., and only the infinitive vs. gerund lets you know that.

    There's a lot more good stuff in the article.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  9. Gernot Back

    Gernot Back Senior Member

    Cologne, Germany
    German - Germany
    But then the difference is less a semantic one between the verbs but rather a syntactical one between the depending clauses (infinitive clause as a final clause vs. a noun clause):


    • Er ist nie vorbeigekommen, um mir Denkanstöße zu geben.
      (Finale Infinitivkonstruktion)
    • Er hat nie aufgehört, mir Denkanstöße zu geben.
      (Infinitivkunstruktion als Objektsatz)
     
  10. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Yes, the expression to stop+full infinitive has two theoretically possible interpretation, as a final and as an object clause. The difference is semantic and syntactic. If you have another way to phrase one of the meanings (to stop+gerund) it is quite natural that idiomatic usage will restrict the ambiguous construct to the other interpretation in order to eliminate the ambiguity.
     
  11. exgerman Senior Member

    NYC
    English but my first language was German
    Yes. On the other hand, the article I referenced points out that the semantically equivalent verb cease has the same meaning with infinitive and gerund.

    This is a tiny niggling point about an obscure structure of English. I posted it because the article also goes on to wonder how any language learner of any language learns these little things that native speakers have absorbed in childhood and don't find odd at all.
     
  12. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Precisely because cease does not have the semantic ambiguity, there is no need to block one of the two forms and moth forms can be used with identical meaning and identical syntactic analysis (object rather than final clause).
    You have to train your intuition. If you speak a language only intellectually, applying grammar rules without "fleeling" them, you will never get close to native speaker level. I think, that's the trick.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013

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