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Grammatical analysis of أكلت السمكة حتى رأسها

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by asadxyz, Dec 13, 2007.

  1. asadxyz Senior Member

    USA
    English
  2. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    It seems that other people on that forum have already answered the question.



    1. Ra2sahaa: I ate the fish - (I) even (ate) its head!
    2. Ra2suhaa: I ate the fish until its head (was eaten).
    3. Ra2sihaa: I ate the fish up to its head.

    I don't know what other people on this forum think, but the posters there seemed to be satisfied with this.
     
  3. asadxyz Senior Member

    USA
    English
    Would you explain grammaitcally the following sentence?
    Thanks in advance.
     
  4. clevermizo Moderator

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    Like what, syntax trees?

    I'm not sure if it's right or not but I'm following the logic from the forum from which your example was originally taken.

    Akaltu s-samakata 7atta ra2suhaa ma2kuul.
    I ate the fish until its head was eaten.

    'Until' here is introducing a resultative clause. The two clauses are 'akaltu s-samaka' and 'ra2su s-samakati (ra2suhaa) ma2kuul(un).' The 7atta connects the two. (I ate the fish; The fish's head was eaten --> I ate the fish until its head was eaten.) The subject of the first clause is 'I', the subject of the second is 'the fish's head.' The omission of some of the second clause in 'Akaltu s-samakata 7atta ra2suhaa' would then just be ellipsis.

    Again I don't know if this use is normal or not, but it seems this was accepted by the folks at that other forum.
     
  5. asadxyz Senior Member

    USA
    English
    My question is not about what that forum adopted.My question is whether it is really grammatically correct sentence or not.If so,then what is the status of "7attaa" in this sentence.
     
  6. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    First, I wanted to say that the explanatory sentence they gave (أكلت السكمة حتى رَأسُها مأكول ) doesn't seem right to me. مأكول is the passive particle, but it seems to me that the passive verb should have been used since the sentence started out with a verb -- أكلت السمكة حتى أُكِلَ رأسُها .

    Anyway, looking through a grammar book here is what I found:

    حتى الابتدائية
    اصطلاحًا:
    حرف ابتداء ، يدخل على الجملة الاسمية والفعلية.

    نحو:
    فوا عجبا حتى كليبٌ يسبُني.

    Hatta al-ibtidaa2iyya
    Usage:
    Particle of introduction, added to a nominal or verbal sentence.

    Example:
    How amazing! Even Kulayb is insulting me.

    It doesn't explicitly say that the following sentence remains in the nominative, but if the example can be believed then we see that it does.
     
  7. asadxyz Senior Member

    USA
    English
    Thanks a lot Josh and Clevemizo.
    You are really wonderful.
    :thumbsup:
     
  8. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    I don't have much to add, just a couple of quick notes:
    حتى in this sentence should be translated as "even".
    It is normal.
    I guess he was giving the meaning rather than the exact proper rephrasing.
    You can also say: أكلتُ السمكةَ حتى رأسُها أكلته
     

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